King_Neptune
Founder
Please - The Stupid Need Not Apply ...
If you only want to be a jerk, flame, fight, argue, or follow the sheep to the Slaughter - Just hit your BACK button now. Im only looking for some Intelligent input.
<Snip>
Seems that we have had another fatal case .... died while diving on the Inspiration Rebreather
</Snip>
Now, a while back I mentioned my conclusion on the Inspiration Rebreather ... as well as other rebreathers. I also took some [red]HEAT[/red] for what I said. People don't like to hear that people [red]DIE[/red] using their products, which I can understand, but when is enough going to be enough, people?
I also understand that to many I am just another opinion, and we all know what they say about opinions. (But when a few dozen people regularly place their lives in you hands - due to the position the government deemed me responsible enough to hold - I make it my business to KNOW as much about all the facts as I possibly could as I am sure any of you would do.) As I look around I start to see a pattern that is just [red]SCARRY[/red]!
Now, I'm not a sales person for, a rep for, or paid by any manufacturer of any product period. Having said that I want to point out a post I made some time ago ... As some of you may remember That Post I Made Back Here ...
I cant help but begin to question how much research people really do into their products they purchase. All of these diving related fatalities that involve rebreathers have an eerie resemblance to what happened to all those Ford vehicles that used those "exploding tires". How many cases of [red]DEATH[/red] have to happen before someone takes some public responsibility for these occurrences. Why is it that every time it's written off to "Diver Error" or "Multiple Factors" played a role in their [red]DEATH[/red]?
Rebreather Divers and inexperience and/or Sloppy just don't usually fit very normal in the same sentence. The training is usually LONG and EXPENSIVE. And if it is everything but this particular piece of equipment's fault, such as "Diver Error" then would that naturally bring into question their Training?!?!
I don't like knocking the name of anyone that has passed away, especially those that devoted much of their time to helping others and was a very active Instructor. But, common sense makes me question something here. Maybe one of you can toss in your $0.02 and help me understand...
Ok, now ... I have heard every explanation that I think is possible each time one of these unfortunate incidents happen. Everything from "It's possible that ..." and "We can't be positive, but it was rumored that ..." to "Multiple factors lead to ..." and "And then they incorrectly did this...".
Sometimes the "Conspiracy Theorist" get on their soap box (The 'National Enquirer' is in Love with these types) and start up with the, "It's a Plot by ... to assassinate ...", yada yada yada... But I will give one "Theory" some serious possible credence - How many of them are/were brushed under the rug, or that we never heard about, or are very effectively and swiftly reported as "Something Else", sometimes NOT even Diving Related.
I can't help but wonder (yet I'm afraid I already know the answer), at what point are we going to get the straight and narrow version.
CASE #1 Have you ever noticed that if someone (especially a non-or-new-diver) hardly so much as sees a shark, what we hear the next day is, "SHARKS ATTACK - NEWS AT 8:00 ... 8:15, 8:30, 8:45, 9:00, etc" not to mention during every commercial break for the next week. Then they replay "JAWS" as the Prime Time movie of the week, followed by "Deep Blue Sea" and "Deep Rising" as the Late Night Specials of the week, and "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" as the "After School Special of the Week". Then you might talk to that persons now publicist, you learn that while studying the migratory path of a rare moth they ran out of gas and called the Coast Guard near an area they "Filmed" a 2 minute episode of SeaQuest that had a talking shark special quest (that you again learn later was just a Dolphin and some guy behind the curtain with a Microphone).
CASE #2 But ... Some person is hanging around 20ft. during a dive, when their New brand-X regulator mysteriously dissolves in the salt water and then while reaching for their backup reg they turn and get their mask caught on kelp and it partially floods and just then a their partner was coming around to show them how an octopus was crawling on their face mask and the poor air lacking, mask flooded/fogged soul has a heart attack from the fright of thinking they were being attacked by some exotic sea creature (because they just watched all those shows after the story above) and while trying to release their weight belt they rip a hole in their dry suit and it floods and they sink to the bottom of the abyss like an anvil...
Now before I ask you, "What killed them?" I have to mention that in the last 2 years, [red]At Least[/red] a dozen other cases of this very thing happened! .... and ALL of them where ALL using the very same BRAND-X regulator... Oh yeah, and most of them were all experienced divers that were either Instructors, that had been diving since somewhere around the invention of WATER or otherwise very non-newbie divers.
Ok, now ... "How did they Die"?
Some have mentioned that they believe the reason we don't hear something like Case #1 above is (notice again the rumored resemblance between sharks and them), the companies whom produce the equipment used, have LAWYERS. Although said in jest, they may not be all to far away from the truth.
So once again, "What Killed Them"?
This usually gets people all jumpy and the response is usually everything from "Well, the Sea Monster got them" to a 'scuba.flames.r.us.rec.I.just.like.to.fight' blubbering hissy fit of defense towards the diver themselves and/or the Agency that trained them and/or the equipment used, etc.
I am curious as to others thoughts on why we, as an Industry, are all too quick to brush it under the rug? Do all of you believe in Sea Monsters? ... Or that it was actually the Kelps fault for knocking his mask sideways causing it to flood? Or that it was just a Poor buddy? ... Or that it was the Heart Attack? Or maybe, if you want to listen to all the Manufacturers of the equipment or Training Agency you tend to go with the ME's official report of "They Drowned ie..Ran out of Air, swallowed too much water, etc."... ?
As far as Fatalities during diving goes, and limiting those to cases where "Rebreather" were used, isn't it just a small chance of a hint odd that they ALL used the same BRAND-X???
I am really getting sick of the way blame is issued. For example lets say there is 20 pretend cases where, there is this tendency to quickly mention they ran out of air for some reason, BUT then Boldly go on about how they failed to do a controlled accent and how (now that they cant inflate and ascend) they Stayed Down to long, and after DCS/PANIC/Deliria/etc. "possibly" set in, they Failed to do "A-B-C ... through ... X-Y-Z" in the exact proper order with Perfect timing and then after having a Stroke/Heart Attack/etc. it gets rumored that they were known McGreasy Burger lovers and "Maybe Sort of Could Have Possibly Lead to Apparent Additional Complications". - YEAH - and he probably lives in Southern California and purposefully left all the lights on in his house and all the sprinklers going and was a member in a Cult Sector of a Environmental Hate Movement and when he wasn't diving (probably Scouting for new Toxic Waste Dumping Sites) he chopped down trees and dumped used car oil down gopher holes! Anyway, as I said at first, they quickly mention running out of Air ... OH! Yeah, umm, well, the ONLY common factor in all 20 cases was they were all Scuba Divers (DOH!) and they all used THE SAME TANK!
Did I lose any of you there? In case you don't see what I was getting at there let me be a little more blunt...
Ever notice that if they were a popular Instructor, Loving Father with 9 or more kids, ran a half way house/shelter for stray kitty cats, associated with the manufacturer or Training Agency that it IMMEDIATELY becomes something like a "Sudden Medical Complication"...
If they were relatively unknown, single, too old (what is too old?), newbie, wearing reef gloves with a hole in them, or WHATEVER ... then it was THEIR FAULT .... NEVER NEVER NEVER, is it the Rebreathers fault... They always "TESTED" fine!
Yeah, how in the heck would you know if they tested fine? "Because they said it did"?? Hmmm, and you knew EXACTLY all the conditions and were able to recreate them perfectly how? ... Sure, Sure, I believe you .... And all the other rebreather owners of OTHER brands are in PERFECT shape and ALL run shelters for kittens and have large loving families and go to Church 7 days a week and get their equipment checked/serviced at least once a week, regardless of being used or not, are LUCKY, Never use their equipment, only dive in Perfectly Clear, Shallow, Warm, Hawaii Featureless waters... blah blah blah.
"Something here Royally STINKETH"!!
Let us find the few things we can ALL agree are the same ...
1) They were all Humans
2) They are all [red]DEAD[/red]
3) They all used the SAME BRAND-X Rebreathers
Unless, you're one of those that believe people can follow some kind of "Higher Calling" and achieve some Blessed Statehood of "Perfect Diverness" where they are unable to make any sort of human error, #1 can wrap up and loose ends...
Other than that, Why is it NO one wants to state the Painfully and Absurdly OBVIOUS common denominator here?
I would suspect it can be traced back somewhere to the ALMIGHTY $.
Seriously, who is to be held accountable here?
The dead?
Hardly fair, low blow!
Don't any of the rest of you smell something fishy here? What would/do you look for while chosing your equipment?
When all those reports came out about people DYING when their Tires Blew up on their Fords did any of you say, "Well, they look cool and they are CHEAP" and then rush out to buy one? When all the companies came out saying it was this/that and all the other "things" did you believe it? Or if you bought a Ford did you buy the exact same model with the same tires ... On Purpose?
People, S.C.U.B.A. equipment is LIFE SUPPORT GEAR! I can't help but think BRAND-X should be on a different shelf ... The S.C.U.Non-B.A. equipment section.
I have been seriously researching rebreathers since I am currently in the Market for one ... Let me ask you all one thing - After reading about (especially when you read stuff like this) and/or researching rebreathers, how many of you would buy an [red]A.P.Valves Inspiration[/red]?
Doesn't a 1-2 [red]DEATHS[/red] per month Avg sound and sirens, wave any flags, flash any lights?
As I am close to buying mine, I hear of this latest unfortunate event and I have to honestly ask this because I really really really do not understand this ...
=-)
If you only want to be a jerk, flame, fight, argue, or follow the sheep to the Slaughter - Just hit your BACK button now. Im only looking for some Intelligent input.
<Snip>
Seems that we have had another fatal case .... died while diving on the Inspiration Rebreather
</Snip>
Now, a while back I mentioned my conclusion on the Inspiration Rebreather ... as well as other rebreathers. I also took some [red]HEAT[/red] for what I said. People don't like to hear that people [red]DIE[/red] using their products, which I can understand, but when is enough going to be enough, people?
I also understand that to many I am just another opinion, and we all know what they say about opinions. (But when a few dozen people regularly place their lives in you hands - due to the position the government deemed me responsible enough to hold - I make it my business to KNOW as much about all the facts as I possibly could as I am sure any of you would do.) As I look around I start to see a pattern that is just [red]SCARRY[/red]!
Now, I'm not a sales person for, a rep for, or paid by any manufacturer of any product period. Having said that I want to point out a post I made some time ago ... As some of you may remember That Post I Made Back Here ...
I cant help but begin to question how much research people really do into their products they purchase. All of these diving related fatalities that involve rebreathers have an eerie resemblance to what happened to all those Ford vehicles that used those "exploding tires". How many cases of [red]DEATH[/red] have to happen before someone takes some public responsibility for these occurrences. Why is it that every time it's written off to "Diver Error" or "Multiple Factors" played a role in their [red]DEATH[/red]?
Rebreather Divers and inexperience and/or Sloppy just don't usually fit very normal in the same sentence. The training is usually LONG and EXPENSIVE. And if it is everything but this particular piece of equipment's fault, such as "Diver Error" then would that naturally bring into question their Training?!?!
I don't like knocking the name of anyone that has passed away, especially those that devoted much of their time to helping others and was a very active Instructor. But, common sense makes me question something here. Maybe one of you can toss in your $0.02 and help me understand...
This is not all that amazing by its self, because as I mentioned before, you just don't pick up rebreathers off the shelf at the local "Joe Scuba Shack" and start diving. These people are TRAINED and this kind of diving is a commitment... So yes, I don't doubt this guy knew his stuff!!
Again, no shock here, I don't question that even a little bit, most of your rebreather divers are walking examples of as close to PERFECT diving as you can currently be.
Ok, now ... I have heard every explanation that I think is possible each time one of these unfortunate incidents happen. Everything from "It's possible that ..." and "We can't be positive, but it was rumored that ..." to "Multiple factors lead to ..." and "And then they incorrectly did this...".
Sometimes the "Conspiracy Theorist" get on their soap box (The 'National Enquirer' is in Love with these types) and start up with the, "It's a Plot by ... to assassinate ...", yada yada yada... But I will give one "Theory" some serious possible credence - How many of them are/were brushed under the rug, or that we never heard about, or are very effectively and swiftly reported as "Something Else", sometimes NOT even Diving Related.
I can't help but wonder (yet I'm afraid I already know the answer), at what point are we going to get the straight and narrow version.
CASE #1 Have you ever noticed that if someone (especially a non-or-new-diver) hardly so much as sees a shark, what we hear the next day is, "SHARKS ATTACK - NEWS AT 8:00 ... 8:15, 8:30, 8:45, 9:00, etc" not to mention during every commercial break for the next week. Then they replay "JAWS" as the Prime Time movie of the week, followed by "Deep Blue Sea" and "Deep Rising" as the Late Night Specials of the week, and "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" as the "After School Special of the Week". Then you might talk to that persons now publicist, you learn that while studying the migratory path of a rare moth they ran out of gas and called the Coast Guard near an area they "Filmed" a 2 minute episode of SeaQuest that had a talking shark special quest (that you again learn later was just a Dolphin and some guy behind the curtain with a Microphone).
CASE #2 But ... Some person is hanging around 20ft. during a dive, when their New brand-X regulator mysteriously dissolves in the salt water and then while reaching for their backup reg they turn and get their mask caught on kelp and it partially floods and just then a their partner was coming around to show them how an octopus was crawling on their face mask and the poor air lacking, mask flooded/fogged soul has a heart attack from the fright of thinking they were being attacked by some exotic sea creature (because they just watched all those shows after the story above) and while trying to release their weight belt they rip a hole in their dry suit and it floods and they sink to the bottom of the abyss like an anvil...
Now before I ask you, "What killed them?" I have to mention that in the last 2 years, [red]At Least[/red] a dozen other cases of this very thing happened! .... and ALL of them where ALL using the very same BRAND-X regulator... Oh yeah, and most of them were all experienced divers that were either Instructors, that had been diving since somewhere around the invention of WATER or otherwise very non-newbie divers.
Ok, now ... "How did they Die"?
Some have mentioned that they believe the reason we don't hear something like Case #1 above is (notice again the rumored resemblance between sharks and them), the companies whom produce the equipment used, have LAWYERS. Although said in jest, they may not be all to far away from the truth.
So once again, "What Killed Them"?
This usually gets people all jumpy and the response is usually everything from "Well, the Sea Monster got them" to a 'scuba.flames.r.us.rec.I.just.like.to.fight' blubbering hissy fit of defense towards the diver themselves and/or the Agency that trained them and/or the equipment used, etc.
I am curious as to others thoughts on why we, as an Industry, are all too quick to brush it under the rug? Do all of you believe in Sea Monsters? ... Or that it was actually the Kelps fault for knocking his mask sideways causing it to flood? Or that it was just a Poor buddy? ... Or that it was the Heart Attack? Or maybe, if you want to listen to all the Manufacturers of the equipment or Training Agency you tend to go with the ME's official report of "They Drowned ie..Ran out of Air, swallowed too much water, etc."... ?
As far as Fatalities during diving goes, and limiting those to cases where "Rebreather" were used, isn't it just a small chance of a hint odd that they ALL used the same BRAND-X???
I am really getting sick of the way blame is issued. For example lets say there is 20 pretend cases where, there is this tendency to quickly mention they ran out of air for some reason, BUT then Boldly go on about how they failed to do a controlled accent and how (now that they cant inflate and ascend) they Stayed Down to long, and after DCS/PANIC/Deliria/etc. "possibly" set in, they Failed to do "A-B-C ... through ... X-Y-Z" in the exact proper order with Perfect timing and then after having a Stroke/Heart Attack/etc. it gets rumored that they were known McGreasy Burger lovers and "Maybe Sort of Could Have Possibly Lead to Apparent Additional Complications". - YEAH - and he probably lives in Southern California and purposefully left all the lights on in his house and all the sprinklers going and was a member in a Cult Sector of a Environmental Hate Movement and when he wasn't diving (probably Scouting for new Toxic Waste Dumping Sites) he chopped down trees and dumped used car oil down gopher holes! Anyway, as I said at first, they quickly mention running out of Air ... OH! Yeah, umm, well, the ONLY common factor in all 20 cases was they were all Scuba Divers (DOH!) and they all used THE SAME TANK!
Did I lose any of you there? In case you don't see what I was getting at there let me be a little more blunt...
Ever notice that if they were a popular Instructor, Loving Father with 9 or more kids, ran a half way house/shelter for stray kitty cats, associated with the manufacturer or Training Agency that it IMMEDIATELY becomes something like a "Sudden Medical Complication"...
If they were relatively unknown, single, too old (what is too old?), newbie, wearing reef gloves with a hole in them, or WHATEVER ... then it was THEIR FAULT .... NEVER NEVER NEVER, is it the Rebreathers fault... They always "TESTED" fine!
Yeah, how in the heck would you know if they tested fine? "Because they said it did"?? Hmmm, and you knew EXACTLY all the conditions and were able to recreate them perfectly how? ... Sure, Sure, I believe you .... And all the other rebreather owners of OTHER brands are in PERFECT shape and ALL run shelters for kittens and have large loving families and go to Church 7 days a week and get their equipment checked/serviced at least once a week, regardless of being used or not, are LUCKY, Never use their equipment, only dive in Perfectly Clear, Shallow, Warm, Hawaii Featureless waters... blah blah blah.
"Something here Royally STINKETH"!!
Let us find the few things we can ALL agree are the same ...
1) They were all Humans
2) They are all [red]DEAD[/red]
3) They all used the SAME BRAND-X Rebreathers
Unless, you're one of those that believe people can follow some kind of "Higher Calling" and achieve some Blessed Statehood of "Perfect Diverness" where they are unable to make any sort of human error, #1 can wrap up and loose ends...
Other than that, Why is it NO one wants to state the Painfully and Absurdly OBVIOUS common denominator here?
I would suspect it can be traced back somewhere to the ALMIGHTY $.
Seriously, who is to be held accountable here?
The dead?
Hardly fair, low blow!
Don't any of the rest of you smell something fishy here? What would/do you look for while chosing your equipment?
When all those reports came out about people DYING when their Tires Blew up on their Fords did any of you say, "Well, they look cool and they are CHEAP" and then rush out to buy one? When all the companies came out saying it was this/that and all the other "things" did you believe it? Or if you bought a Ford did you buy the exact same model with the same tires ... On Purpose?
People, S.C.U.B.A. equipment is LIFE SUPPORT GEAR! I can't help but think BRAND-X should be on a different shelf ... The S.C.U.Non-B.A. equipment section.
I have been seriously researching rebreathers since I am currently in the Market for one ... Let me ask you all one thing - After reading about (especially when you read stuff like this) and/or researching rebreathers, how many of you would buy an [red]A.P.Valves Inspiration[/red]?
Doesn't a 1-2 [red]DEATHS[/red] per month Avg sound and sirens, wave any flags, flash any lights?
As I am close to buying mine, I hear of this latest unfortunate event and I have to honestly ask this because I really really really do not understand this ...
=-)
