Piston vs. Diaphragm

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cwtan

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Which type of 1st stage reg is better: piston or diaphragm??
I know that diaphragm 1st stages are more expensive & that's about all I know. I'm looking for regs now & don't know which to get: go for the more expensive one??
I'm looking at RS130 (piston) & RS230 (diaphragm) from Tusa. Anyone tried these regs before? Any comments? Thanx..
 
Our resident reg guru, rainreg, is more qualified to answer your question. Maybe he'll chime in. But generally speaking, diapharm regs are more suitable to diving in extreme conditions such as dirty water. This is due to their "sealed" design. Performance wise, you'd be hard pressed to notice much difference, if any, within the recreational limits, between the two. I don't know a thing about Tusa's regs though, so can't help you there. But generally speaking again, you want to buy the highest performance regulator that you can afford. Scubadiving.com has alot of reviews you could check. And there are alot of reviews at http://www.divernet.com.
 
Until the mid 1970's, the diaphragm design was the standard. This was due to the fact that the first serious US Divers single hose regulators, called Conshelf after the Frenchman's UW habitat experiment, incorporated a "balanced" diaphragm first stage based on the first stage of the two hose Royal Aquamaster. This first stage is still USD's workhorse and some parts are still interchangeable with the two hose reg. While advantages over the piston reg are not as pronounced as heretofore, the diaphragm reg's reliability in salt water environments is still recognized due to its sealed mechanism. One small distinction, the diaphragm first stage intermediate pressure is instantly adjustable which can sometimes be useful.

There was a serious challenge to the diaphragm reg in the '70's. This was due to clever marketing and promotion of another design, the Italian, SCUBAPRO piston design. The stated advantage was that the piston regulator was easier for the average diver to disassemble and maintain in the field. Indeed, this was true as the thing could be field stripped in a matter of minutes. The diaphragm, by contrast, has many small parts that can be tricky to align and install. Moreover, the diaphragm first stage poppet was more delicate than the piston reg's teflon hp seat. On the other hand, the piston reg's O rings were problematical and had a reputation as "leakers". The pistons required very precise alignment during manufacture which some companies had difficulty with. Exposure of the internal parts to salt water and stress of the newly developed 3000 psi tanks seemed to adversely affect reliability. This is one of the reasons, I think, that the piston regs had mandatory yearly shop overhaul, eg to control durability problems. I suspect that Scubapro's refusal to sell aluminum tanks was related to this.

In today's world, both types of regulators have seen extensive development. US Divers diaphragm regs now use redesigned hp poppets whose seats are made of synthetic material and are more durable. Scubapro now uses O rings which are carefully spec'ed for hardness and resilience and are made of space age compounds.(No substitutions, please). Both types have undergone other, incremental changes to the good.

As it stands now, there is no compelling reason to select one over the other, just personal preference. The days of field stripping are just about gone, both types are so reliable, and dive shops are everywhere, it is hard to imagine that this would be a major consideration. Neither delivers "more" air than the other, both types deliver all the air anyone could want. Scubapro used to tout the large bore piston but did not like to be reminded that the piston bore was larger than that of the tank valve, the limiting factor. I'm not certain a case can be made for "sealed" vs "open" or flooded design. I suppose ice divers and others will have preferences but modern piston regs can be sealed if necessary. So, as often happens, there is no immediate gratification, only grist for the mill.

PS, When I changed over to single hose in the mid "70's I bought a Conshelf first stage and mated it to a Scubapro adjustable second. Eventually, as the piston design became more reliable, I bought an "all Scubapro" reg. Currently, I use a MK20/G250hp. I am an open water diver who mostly freedives and spearfishes. However, I never leave the dock without an aqualung aboard.

 
Everything devjr says is correct, and I would add that from a day-to-day maintenance standpoint, you need to be more fastidious in caring for the piston reg since water does enter the regs spring chamber and gets right up to the piston o-ring. The diaphragm regs inner guts are completly sealed from the water.
Neil
 
Since I wrote the above, thanks to SARdvr, I took a look at a cutaway drawing of the Sherwood Maximus. The first stage is a piston design which uses an unusual feature to seal off the ambient environment and which nevertheless also allows for instant depth compensation. This is accomplished by bleeding a small amount of air from the low pressure side(which normally floods in a piston reg) to the water. The "Blizzard", a modified Maximus, incorporates a heat exchanger in the second stg rendering the whole regulator suitable for use in freezing conditions. Judging in part from testimonials, I would guess that neither the Apeks nor any other reg would have more reliable cold weather performance.

When I first glanced at the drawing, it appeared that the Maximus was an "unbalanced" reg. Not true, the reg first stage includes a "floating" valve orifice which works somewhat like the balance valve in a diaphragm regulator. I say "somewhat" because that is where the concepts depart company. All in all, very interesting to folks like me(G).

 
devjr,

The patented design you mentioned is one of the key reasons I used my Sherwood Blizzard back in "The Great White North" (Canada, eh?!) Coldest water I dove was 34F; air temps sometimes well below that.

As you pointed out, the positive air bleed essentially "environmentally seals" the first stage, which is a balanced piston.

In addition to the gold-plated heat sink in the 2nd stage, it also has fins inside that "capture" (via condensation) moisture from the diver's breath. This makes for much less dry mouth & throat.

That being said, I recently "retired" my 10 yr old Sherwood in favour of a new Mares Abyss, which has a better flow rate.

~SubMariner~
 
First stage designs have been frozen in time so to speak. The basic designs have been out there for many moons. Yet, the debate goes on. Meanwhile, we don't hear as much parallel discussion of the second stage in spite of continual design changes and refinements by the manufacturers. There are so many, and the design considerations are based on art as well as science, that there may be fertile ground for discussion, or at least ,confusion.

When there are discussions, they seem to revolve around the adjustable, non adjustable, knobs, side exhaust, tilt valve, downstream valve.

The point is, a regulator is a system and the overall requirements of the diver need to enter into the discussion.

My decision to buy has always been based firstly on the second stage design. The reason is that the second stage is what is carried in the diver's mouth and what delivers the air, or water or bubbles or whatever. Who thinks about the first stage when they are diving? When you know what second stage you want, then think about the first stage. I wouldn't rule out mixing brands or models if one is certain of the reasons. From my first post, you can see that I have done this in the past. Fortunately, the dive manufacturers provide model lineups which generally make this unnecessary.

 
Hey all,

I have read the previous posts with great interest, and have learned a lot... thanks!!! However, it seems to me that the first stage is more than just a piece of brass between the tank and your second stage. I dive the Micra, and absolutely love it. Last year it was rated the most easiet breathing regulator by rodales... and it was coupled with the Cousteau First Stage. This year they have matched it with their Titan, and they got terrible reveiws by the same magazine. To me that means that the first stage makes quite a bit of difference... any elucidations???

BTW, I do plan to have my Cousteau First stage sealed when I have it serviced this year.
 
I found nothing in Rodales to support your comment. Perhaps, you could be more specific. Rodales' recent test of the Micra rated breathing a "2". In the same report, results for the "Glacia" were a "1". Both used the Titan first stage.

A rare, new twist among first stage regulators is the Seaquest/Apex ATX200. This is extremely innovative and advertises an "overbalanced" first stage. In other words, gauge intermediate pressure increases as depth increases. No details but I would be interested in how this is done. Tests would be of interest. Rodales', are you listening?
 
Hey Devjr and all,

OK, to be more specific: I guess I just find it going from a "1" and being the "best breather" a year ago to now just a number "2" a step in the wrong direction. Rodale's has obviously found some fault with it. The current review in Rodale's is not an accurate description of the Micra I use. Last year's description (with the Cousteau first stage) is very accurate! It was actually on the strength of that description (last year's) that I made my purchase, and I was not disapointed! Of course I could swap first stages with my son's regulator setup (Titan first stage, Calypso second stage) to test it, but for the most part, I trust Rodale's take on gear. I am sure that the current review is accurate for the Micra/Titan combo. Now this is only my opinion, and your opinion may vary. I just thought it perplexing that people were diminishing the role of the first stage in total breathing satisfaction. Especially in light of this "subjective" evidence to the contrary.

As for mixing brands, I hope that anyone doing this is quite careful AND conservative. The PSI delivered by different first stages can vary signifigantly... as in the Poseidon. I have been advised by more than one shop to never put anything but a Poseidon second stage on a Poseidon first stage, as the pressure to the second stage is high. Unfortunately, I inherited two Poseidon first stages with AQ seconds. They always seem to free flow. I have been told that their pressure can be "dialed down" a tad, but that is not how they were intended to operate. I guess that's why I don't let them put a Chevy water pump in my Nissan, so I better find a couple of Poseidon second stages. Speaking of which, does anyone have the pressure specs on hand for the various first stages? I would love to know if this is just apocryphal information that I have been given, or if it really (pardon pun) holds water.

Did I tell you I love my Micras???
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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