Photos from a PADI Instructor Course Downunder in Sydney, Australia...

[lucygoosey]

Once you analyze and answer that question, I think you'll see why there is a movement away from "on your knees" and towards "prone from the beginning."

The point of my question of course being that I was unaware of any movement.

Of course once you develop past open water I had seen this prone position employed for teaching and practising skills, however I was taught that for beginner divers the best position to keep my students in a semi circle around me on their knees.

This is not to say I agree, it was simply a question as I was unaware of any 'movement' and like I said, I like to keep on top of the best methods to teaching and I am always open to learning and adjusting my skill set to incorporate what I learn, we never stop learning, particularly in this sport. Well I dont anyway. I am a new(ish) instructor and would hate to think my students weren't being taught efficiently because I didnt investigate other teaching methods.

I agree that of course it makes sense to teach students the skills in the position to which, if they ever need to in a real situation, they will be performing them. However my CD taught the kneeling semi circle approach as the best method to keep control. I believe the reasoning given was that kneeling provided the instructor the greatest controls to keep brand new divers stable and in one position.

Next class I take I will try the prone position

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Some of us find that prone and nearly neutral is in fact the easiest way to keep control of the situation. Along with having the students in clearly defined buddy pairs. On their knees in a semi circle they often do not know who is their buddy. When having them demo skills if a diver moves his/her buddy moves with them. But even before getting them prone they need to be properly weighted from the outset. Over-weighting them to keep them planted just adds to the students problems.

Keeping them in one position? Why?

And if you try it you may find you can respond much faster in a horizontal and neutral position. Quite a few of us also demo the skills neutral and in mid-water while horizontal. The students see this and just think it's the way to do it and by the end of the first session many are performing basic skills in this manner.

 

[edm81363]

I work with and support Instructors who employ both methods. When students are on their knees and have difficulties, I have observed that any movement of their legs pushes them towards a standing position and the surface.

When students are prone and have issues, any movement will propel them forward towards the Instructor. And I have seen that students who observe staff prone while demonstrating skills have an easier time transitioning to hovering.

I have felt more comfortable when the students are assembled in a nice little circle, because I was taught that this offers control. But my experience has shown that students can be better served if prone and that control issues are actually less an issue than when they are kneeling.

 

[robertarak]

It is tough on a begining student of any subject to teach them one way to do skill X, then teach a different way to do the same skill, then finally teach them right way. My OW students learn horizontal trim and buoyancy from the get go, in the pool. They do so with no problems. It is simply the way it's done.

Edit to add the following:

Thanks for taking the time to post these pictures. It looks like everyone had a good time and did well. My post is not meant to detract from that. I'm just adding my 2 cents to the evolution of the thread.

 

[RU4SKUBA]

I'm all for it if it doesn't become a time-management related problem exacerbated by higher fees to local pool supervisors. If the pool time is excessive, then the wonderful idea (on paper) loses its luster quickly.

I suspect PADIs original idea was to provide PPB to those who wished to learn more refined buoyancy control prior to hitting the ocean for the first time. Pushing this integrated into OW is clever, but I'm leery of the side-effects, and wonder about its effect on tuition rates.

I like the idea of good trim on new divers, but I'm also a firm believer in the principle that most students will learn their lessons in the water during their dive adventures and they're going to forget much of what they learned. At some point these important principles have to be considered when balanced with more thorough training.

An unpleasant image would be longer pool hours and higher fees, and the newbie OW divers just follow the herd and forget the trim nonsense when they show up on the dive boat for the first time. That thought would upset me... :cool2:

 

[eponym]

I'm all for it if it doesn't become a time-management related problem exacerbated by higher fees to local pool supervisors. If the pool time is excessive, then the wonderful idea (on paper) loses its luster quickly.

We are lucky in that regard, because our shop has an indoor pool on site. Even so most students have a limited number of hours during which they can focus and learn, and need occasional breaks. It's not impossible to add neutrality to the standard course without increasing pool time, but we do put in more dry time rehearsing what we'll do in the pool.

I like the idea of good trim on new divers, but I'm also a firm believer in the principle that most students will learn their lessons in the water during their dive adventures and they're going to forget much of what they learned. At some point these important principles have to be considered when balanced with more thorough training. An unpleasant image would be longer pool hours and higher fees, and the newbie OW divers just follow the herd and forget the trim nonsense when they show up on the dive boat for the first time. That thought would upset me.

This is a great question, not one I've ever heard. I'm not out there seeing what my students do on their dive trips, but I do host local dives, many of them with former students. I see them coming back after their initial travel adventures, getting back into our cold water and poor viz, but still holding to first principles. I don't imagine that they become jack-in-the-boxes whenever they're out of my sight, but it's an interesting question.

I think I will create a new thread in the basic forums to explore whether or not new divers will admit to discarding their training when faced with a lower level of expectations. Good question.

-Bryan

 

[Jim Lapenta]

It is a good question. I would have to say whether or not they stay with their training depends greatly on how important the instructor makes it a part of the class. Talk about buoyancy and trim then do skills on their knees in the pool or ow and the lesson is not reinforced. Talk about buddy skills and not have students buddied up from day one and then lead them on single file swims during checkouts and you might as well have never said anything.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As to time it actually takes less time to teach them since they are more relaxed and not trying to deal with trying to stay upright and are in a more natural diving position.

 

[mheaster]

. . . Quite a few of us also demo the skills neutral and in mid-water while horizontal. The students see this and just think it's the way to do it and by the end of the first session many are performing basic skills in this manner.

This single statement is pretty powerful!

I was taught OW skills kneeling and progressed up through pipeline and eventually attended my IDC/IE and was "taught" to teach students this way. (Or at least I was not taught, to NOT teach this way?)

After my first couple of OW classes I personally experienced the contradiction of trying to get students to remain neutrally buoyant on Open Water training dives when attempting to resolve any issues that they encounter. They tended to revert to settling to that kneeling position (or corking) regardless of their location, to work out issues (loose fin strap, cramp, mask clearing, even concentrating on their SPG's).

I begin toying with the prone/fin pivot position from the VERY beginning (DSD/Confined Water#1). They don't even get told. I have them experience their first underwater breaths on the regulator and as soon as they are comfortable with their faces being underwater they immediately settle into a prone position (because that is position I am in). It is amazingly simple. They don't know otherwise! They just watch and copy what they see! They "assume" that this is the way it is done.

(BE CAREFUL: Students will copy bad habits as well as good techniques!)

It certainly helps later with remaining neutral and hovering. It is practiced constantly from that point forward.

I have even had a Student after his OW Dive #1 ask me why other students he observed at our quarry training location, were kneeling on platform for mask skills?

Rewarding moment when I KNEW I was on right track!

I firmly believe there is a "movement" afoot that will result in all agencies moving toward neutral skills!

 

[Peter Guy]

mh -- one of the real issues with this, at least with PADI, is that almost all, if not all, of the video presentations show everything being done "on the knees" whether in the pool OR in "open water." So even if all they see in real life is prone/neutral, they also have the video images which are all knees/negative/vertical. I find it does cause problems.