People who don't like BP/W?

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Walter,

I've experienced squeeze with many jacket style BC's that have air bladders that run under the arms and over the belly. None of the ones that gave me squeeze had a chest strap. The only chest strap BC's I've used were back inflate style.

Colin
 
Here is my 2 cents and the opinions are mine :wink:

In the last 2 years I have destroyed 2 bcd's in the past 18 months how ?
well I use a Faber hp100 all the time when out in the world or in the pool and as such I have totally wrecked the rear if the bcd's, being a instructor I am tough on gear and as a paying customer this sucks.
I have been using a back pack and wings for the past few weeks and there are a few things that will have me back in a BCD in the next few weeks, I have to show students a few skills that require me to have a BCD as that is typical in rental my B/P is not remotely like that.
I also have to say that the air cell is uncomfortable on the surface with the air directly behind my head, some years ago when training in the UK we had to wear a ABLJ the feeling in the water on the surface is very much like that.

so would I use one yes, I will be using one on my forthcoming advanced nitrox and deco training soon
Not for my every day use which sucks as I will be paying for a BCD every few months :nosmilie:
 
OneBrightGator:
I'm not trying to pick a fight, I promise. HH, have you tried rearranging your weight to offset the moment created by your camera?

Been there, done that, Ben. I've already relocated 100% of my weighting to behind my spine.

I could move it slightly further back by throwing an ankle weight around my tank stem, but this effect here would be minimal - - its really a trick if you need more "nose down" for in-dive horizontal trim. Pragmatically, to move my weighting any further back to offset this buoyancy torque, I'd have to add a weight pocket on the tank strap and put 3-5lbs in it.

I'm relucatant to do this partly because its an ugly klunge, but also because IMO its a band-aid hiding the real, underlying problem, which is the torque from the centroid location of the buoyancy source being too far rearward for this application.


I would think it would effect your diving/floating no matter what type of BC you had.

Floating first:

This would be true only if the centroids of the center of buoyancy for both bladder styles (Jacket vs. Wing) were the same, and they're not: the Wing's design is further "behind" the diver by a good 2-3 inches.

This difference is intimately linked with the designs and the Jacket's "squeeze" complaints: the way in which the Jacket's centroid is further forward is by configuring its bladder so close to the diver such that it "surrounds" him. The Wing avoids the squeeze issue by locating itself entirely behind the diver, which is why its buoyancy centroid is located further behind. The resulting torque differences when the diver is floating upright are straightforward Physics derived from the Moment Arm for each.

For diving:

The diver is rotated to horizontal, and because the moment arms we've been talking about are relative to the Gravity vector, the one discussed above lose their offset from the gravity vector (eg, become close to zero significance).

But this rotation also changes the allignment vs gravity of the centroids in another plain. Specifically, what was the "height" of the bladders' centroids are now horizontally removed from the gravity vector, thereby gaining moment arms. This is where the claims about a Wing's "lower" (closer to the weightbelt) centroid as being beneficial for trim come from. It sure is. However, this is also a trim issue that is similarly addressed by moving around various components.


Overall, we can't cherrypick and use Physics only for those features we want, and try to ignore it for those where it works against us: a perfect system doesn't exist. Pragmatically we need to identify what's more important than others and design our trade-off decisions accordingly.

For me personally, I rank surface float "trim" as important enough that I'm willing to trade off some in-water trim performance/comfort - I see it as air consumption vs. drownproofing on longer floats. For the most part, my trade-off is not to maximize one factor at the expense of all others, but is instead intended to minimize system weaknesses for my application. If you never do non-short surface floats in rougher waters, then what I consider important for my needs may not be a consideration for you; YMMV.


-hh
 
scubadoguk:
In the last 2 years I have destroyed 2 bcd's in the past 18 months how ?
well I use a Faber hp100 all the time when out in the world or in the pool and as such I have totally wrecked the rear if the bcd's, being a instructor I am tough on gear and as a paying customer this sucks.


Care to reveal the brand names of these BC's that you can kill so quickly, and how many dives you're talking about?


FWIW, your 'wrecking the rear w/HP100 tank' (sic) comment kind of sounds like you're using a BC that lacks a hard backpack. Also, is it a "chlorene pool" chemical attack problem, or something else?


-hh
 
reubencahn:
What is a ABL1 ?

Its a "J" not a One at the end.

ABLJ - Adjustable Buoyancy Life Jacket. Think "Horsecollar" BC.


-hh
 
The BCD I have used without fail all have a back pack because of the way the twin band have no hard pack have you mount the clynder high in the jct.
The bcd's were a Cressi and a Aries and the weight and the use has broken the plate in the Aries, the Cressi has a two straps that have come adrift in the back and the whole unit now moves in a very funky way :)
Dives yes lots of pool and lots of quarry's and only 60 or so ocean in that time, please before you nod sagely and say aha chlorine I have been washing and rinsing my gear like a good boy as I really do have to buy this stuff and as my wife says "my Career cost a lot of money"
 
-hh:
This difference is intimately linked with the designs and the Jacket's "squeeze" complaints: the way in which the Jacket's centroid is further forward is by configuring its bladder so close to the diver such that it "surrounds" him. The Wing avoids the squeeze issue by locating itself entirely behind the diver, which is why its buoyancy centroid is located further behind. The resulting torque differences when the diver is floating upright are straightforward Physics derived from the Moment Arm for each.

For diving:

The diver is rotated to horizontal, and because the moment arms we've been talking about are relative to the Gravity vector, the one discussed above lose their offset from the gravity vector (eg, become close to zero significance).

But this rotation also changes the allignment vs gravity of the centroids in another plain. Specifically, what was the "height" of the bladders' centroids are now horizontally removed from the gravity vector, thereby gaining moment arms. This is where the claims about a Wing's "lower" (closer to the weightbelt) centroid as being beneficial for trim come from. It sure is. However, this is also a trim issue that is similarly addressed by moving around various components.



-hh

With an easy to build "sliding ballast system" this rotation can be harnessed to allow continuous face forward flipping with little effort... an efficient but dizzying alternative to surface swimming.
 

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