Peacock Fatality Accident Analysis

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Ok you know FL more than me. Seemed a little further than that to me (like 30ft), but I was only there once so maybe I'm mixing it up with the image of some other 90deg "left hand" tunnel in my head.

Like I said, I'm not saying its right... just picking nits

A rule is a rule, Mathew.

This is true, Jimbo :mooner:

That is a wild ass assumption. It would never stand up in court as you have absolutely no way of knowing another person's state of mind and specifically in this case why she became confused and/or panicked.

Who's going to court???

I agree that had they been setting up a circuit and she had bolted that she coudl have them come across their own jump reel and had the potential to know where she was in the cave. However, Marci's point is that even if you followed the rules, if they were on dive 2 of the circuit and pulling the gear behind them, there would have been no perosnal gear to see when bolting in a direction believed to be "out".

I would think that after setting the dive up, and having to pull their lines, would have been enough validation of their positioning to keep any panic from happening, and no reason to bolt, rational or not. Can I prove it? No more than you can prove a medical issue. However, its often difficult to prove common sense. If I put this reel here two hours ago, chances are, I'm gonna feel pretty damned good about where I am now.

Your assumption that having properly placed jumps woudl have conveyed a sense of confidence or reduced confusion is not idealistic and not very plausible. This was not mexico and it was not new cave for the diver. It is the peanut tunnel, with compartively simple navigational demands.

Who said it was Mexico? Did you read up on this thread? She was absolutely new to jumps, and had NEVER done this circuit. Its easy to not recognize where you are, in a section of familiar cave, when coming from a different direction.

Placing jumps and marking intersections yourself is ABSOLUTELY a plausible way to ensure that you are where you should be without confusion. Your own line is the biggest ABSOLUTE we have in cave diving.

Looking at a map, it is evident that she bolted at a point 800' from P1 on the Peanut line, about 500' from Olson, 1700' from P1 via the crossover and olsen-pothole lines, 1400' to Olsen via the peanut restriction and about 1800' from Challenge. If her gas consumption was comparabel to her buddy's consumption she ahd enough gas to reach any of those exits if she just stayed the course.

Asumiming she got to the peanut restriction and realized where she was (with apparently enough gas to go another 1000') she had 3 chouces. Left and 800' to Challenge, right and 500' to Olsen, or back track about 1800' to P1. Only one of those choices would have resulted in death yet that was the choice she made.

Again, its been stated by people who know these divers, people who've DIVED with these divers, that they were new to jumps, new to traverses, new to circuits. What makes you think she had ever taken the lines from the Peanut restriction to Challenge or Olsen? She almost certainly backtracked because that was her only familiar territory. Thats not a stretch, at all.

The point being that in a full panicked or confused state that lasted at least 10 minutes, she would have most likely not benefited from seeing a jump real at the crossover tunnel.

I disagree, and even moreso, think the entire event wouldn't have taken place had they set the circuit up properly to begin with...

 

[rjack321]

well... the thought comes to mind that the instructor likely 'tested' her in conditions that he/she was certifying her to dive in.

Yeah but she got all spooked and ditched a buddy she was trying to "catch up to" only 400'p along the Olsen line. That's an Intro dive for sure. TS&M brought up pre-Alzheimer's behavior could this be a hint of that and was it less noticable not evident in her intro class 4 yrs ago? In this previous case there weren't even any rules broken. I'll postulate it turned out ok because they were within training and following the rules. But they didn't use it as enough of a warning sign and tried more aggressive dives where the dive didn't tolerate it.

 

[Cave Diver]

My turn to pick nits.

Who said it was Mexico? Did you read up on this thread? She was absolutely new to jumps, and had NEVER done this circuit. Its easy to not recognize where you are, in a section of familiar cave, when coming from a different direction.

This is really more of an open question, not addressed specifically to Mat. His quote just brings up an interesting counterpoint.

Considering the amount of dives they are said to have in Peacock and the relatively short and easy section of cave they were in, isn't it reasonable to think they've probably dove through that section numerous times?

If so, shouldn't there have been some familiarity of coming from that direction after calling previous dives and turning to exit?

Even if they did end up here by doing jumps or attempting a circuit, surely this is not their first time in this section of the cave and something should have looked familiar. It's been a while since I've been at Peacock, but the last time I was that was the section we dove and I recall it being fairly distinctive.

 

[DiverLaura]

Yeah but she got all spooked and ditched a buddy she was trying to "catch up to" only 400'p along the Olsen line. That's an Intro dive for sure. TS&M brought up pre-Alzheimer's behavior could this be a hint of that and was it less noticable not evident in her intro class 4 yrs ago? In this previous case there weren't even any rules broken. I'll postulate it turned out ok because they were within training and following the rules. But they didn't use it as enough of a warning sign and tried more aggressive dives where the dive didn't tolerate it.

Ya, thats an odd one... brings up the whole buddy communication thing, etc... but thats already been mentioned here...

thats also why, as a team, it's important to understand both our own AND our team members comfort level, limits, mindset, etc... The more aggressive the dive with regards to our training, the more we may need to lean on the 'team' to be as strong as we can be, as opposed to two (or three) independently strong divers doing a dive as a team for the mutual benefit of the whole.

in a situation where we are banging at or beyond the limits of our training, everyone needs to bring their A-game to the table. If someone's head is not in it, we, as a team, need to make the decision to either call it or figure out a way to make a less aggressive dive.

(i'm not writing that very well, but i imagine people will hopefully get the gist of what i'm trying to get across)

 

[BabyDuck]

I can very easily imagine if she took her eyes off the line for even a little bit looking for 'recognizable landmarks' and not seeing things look how she expected them to look (from other direction) how looking back down and seeing the arrows going contrary to what the brain thinks it should be seeing could start a spiral of doubt. Sometimes that's all it takes.

the arrows here do point to the exit they were heading for. she turned away from arrows pointing in the direction of her travel.

at this point on the other side, the pothole/olsen side, the arrows would be pointing to olsen and in the contrary direction they would have been traveling, but peanut is a straight shot of gold line out.

 

[DiverLaura]

right, but if she's got circuit on the brain...

we will never know exactly what happened, or why.

lots of conjecture, the only thing we can do is look into ourselves and make sure we do everything we can to limit the likelihood of finding ourselves in a similar situation.

the arrows here do point to the exit they were heading for. she turned away from arrows pointing in the direction of her travel.

at this point on the other side, the pothole/olsen side, the arrows would be pointing to olsen and in the contrary direction they would have been traveling, but peanut is a straight shot of gold line out.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My turn to pick nits.

This is really more of an open question, not addressed specifically to Mat. His quote just brings up an interesting counterpoint.

Considering the amount of dives they are said to have in Peacock and the relatively short and easy section of cave they were in, isn't it reasonable to think they've probably dove through that section numerous times?

If so, shouldn't there have been some familiarity of coming from that direction after calling previous dives and turning to exit?

Even if they did end up here by doing jumps or attempting a circuit, surely this is not their first time in this section of the cave and something should have looked familiar. It's been a while since I've been at Peacock, but the last time I was that was the section we dove and I recall it being fairly distinctive.

My final dive there in May was up that line to Challenge. And yes, there are sections that are quite distinctive ... and according to the map Rob posted yesterday she was quite close to one ... a slope that rises rather steeply from 55 feet to about 15 feet. It's the only place in the whole Peacock system where that happens.

Sadly, she lost it about 200 feet before she got to that landmark, or she'd almost certainly have known where she was ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

Even if they did end up here by doing jumps or attempting a circuit, surely this is not their first time in this section of the cave and something should have looked familiar.

yeah but she had "got in her head" and rushed badly once before regardless of known passage or not.

 

[rjack321]

thats also why, as a team, it's important to understand both our own AND our team members comfort level, limits, mindset, etc... The more aggressive the dive with regards to our training, the more we may need to lean on the 'team' to be as strong as we can be, as opposed to two (or three) independently strong divers doing a dive as a team for the mutual benefit of the whole.

I'm getting a vibe that there was a "leader buddy - follower buddy" thing going on here.

 

[Green_Streak]

Just found out that this was her first dive doing a circuit/jumps of any sort while buddy in the lead had done this profile once or twice before. I hope the facts I've provided can help quiet down some of the wild guessing and speculation.