Payments to Belize / Ambregris Caye dive shops

[Damselfish]

TripAdvisor, Yelp, and similar general purpose sites can be useful for learning of the existence of things (and apparently not always that either - the London restaurant bit is a hoot.) Sort of like all those top 10 lists of anything. There is actually useful info to be had but you're always trying to figure out what's real or meaningful to you. I skip them for anything related to diving. (Aside from actual shenanigans, I think there's a feedback loop going on. People serious about diving (or any activity) don't read or review there because the reviews often can't be taken seriously. And they can't be taken seriously because the people that know what they're talking about aren't there. )

 

[Charles Graves]

Between you and me, I run a business (not a scuba business, but a business nonetheless) back in my area in the USA.

Credit card fraud is a felony, its a serious crime, and I highly doubt that any guy who is intelligent enough to own a successful scuba business in a nice resort area, is going to be retarded enough to steal your card (no offense but im just saying haha). If he is successful and financially well-off enough to own a scuba company, then he is LIVING THE DREAM, and no offense but dont flatter yourself, he aint wanting to steal your card bro lol.

Like for lack of a better way of putting it... Nobody is gonna throw their entire life away just to get access to your credit card. It just isnt that damn important haha. That's something some random ghetto person would do, and not a licensed, certified, and successful business owner.

=========
Anyway as for my business...

RIGHT NOW, we use a secure payment online form that we email to our customers, and they fill it out securely, without me/anyone on our company staff hearing it or seeing the card info. I am sure some customers appreciate that (plus it saves us valuable admin time).

HOWEVER BEFORE, we had a different merchant (who actually charged us more money, annoyingly enough) and we had to take the payments over the phone, to input it into our system. We had to do this bcuz we didnt have the OPTION to email them any payment forms. Our old one was called Vantix. Our new one, I forget what its called but it works much better and doesnt need me to hear the card info.

I NEVER EVER HAVE STOLEN SOMEONES CARD INFO. A couple times (very rare occasions) I had potential customers remark that they "werent comfortable" giving their card info over the phone, but in those cases, those people were over cautious and they lost a great company to do business with.

99.9% of customers paid me over the phone with no incident, and of course, we promptly sent them the receipt form. Apparently, Vantix had many thousands of businesses (large and small), so apparently the "card over the phone" thing is very common for small businesses.

We have had like 400+ customers during that 2 year time period where we used that form, who didnt have any problems with it. None of them had an issue with it, except the 2 people (who to me, seemed paranoid).

If anyone fraudulently charges your card, you have a legal right to do a chargeback- and you get your money back, no questions asked.

If you are particularly worried, you can ask to receive a written invoice first, stating exactly how much they will charge your card, and no more. This way you have proof of the amount you are supposed to be paying.

In my case, the only times people tried chargebacks on me (annoyingly enough, again) is when the charge WAS legitimate, and they just wanted to "cancel" last minute (cant do that once they had signed a legal contract) or they were just cheap and didnt want to pay for a completed project that our company did for them. I had to take both of those people to small claims court, and I won of course.

My personal recommendation is: CHECK THEIR ONLINE REVIEWS.

If they have a ton of good reviews, and nobody said anything about "oh they stole my credit card info", then I think it is pretty damn obvious they wont steal your credit card info, no offense brohan lol.

However if they dont have any reviews, or the reviews are all recent and seem fake, then perhaps use a different scuba place. However even with few reviews, its still an unlikely thing that they would steal your card info.

 

[gopbroek]

For travel I use a separate pre funded checking account with a Visa /ATM card. I have a free account with Schawb and fund it by writing myself checks from my primary bank and depositing them via my phone. My theory, which I have not had to test, is that if a scammer or skimmer drains the account there is a fixed limit for the damage. After the fact I know Schawb will correct it but in the mean time I have a backup card to finish the trip. Kind of paranoid but it allows me to sleep easier.

 

[Ministryofgiraffes]

OK, wanted to follow up after the trip. Unfortunately after the good first experience things went downhill and I ended up stopping my diving with shop not on a great note.

Wrote an honest review of my experience on tripadvisor. Wouldn't you know, my honest experience got "flagged" by someone as violating trip advisor guidelines. I overlooked tripadvisor email in a bunch of other junk email in my inbox, and TripAdvisor deleted my review after just 24 hours! I am now emailing them trying to get that review recovered.

Now it make sense to me how that dive shop has only 5 star reviews. Anything that's not 5 star gets flagged daily by the dive shop owner as "inappropriate", and tripadvisor deletes the review. That's crazy. Din't realize it was possible. I'm trying to get TripAdvisor to review my review. I will definitely post full experience here. If TripAdvisor can't recover my review, I fortunately have a draft saved. I'll make sure to post full review here (either restored from TripAdvisor or restored from my draft). It was fairly long and detailed. I'll post a separate "Beware" thread on that dive shop. Didn't realize the owner was that kind of a person... He did seemed like a decent guy at first.

I’d be very interested to hear this feedback Alex, I have been diving with Belize pro dive for years, I have referred them directly multiple times (over 80) and always try to get feedback from people, I have never had negative feedback on the shop. I’m particularly interested in your accusation that there was financial improprieties. That’s a very serious claim. Please do upload your review here ASAP or DM me.

 

[FindingMenno]

Seems to me a "well ran dive shop" would just take a minute and get a paypal account and be done with these logistical issues on payments once and for all.

Bit of a late response, but came here by way of a 'thumbs down' thread I participated in. I'm not familiar with the dive shop in question, or accusing/defending any of the parties involved in this dive trip. Not taking any sides here.

But I just want to add some perspective to doing business in other countries, and judging local business behaviour based on services available 'back home'. In this example, Paypal doesn't allow withdrawals to a Belize bank account (only to a Belize issued credit card, but I assume that as local business owner you do not want all your income locked on a credit card). As is the same in many other countries in the world, such as the Cayman Islands where I'm based.
Making a statement as above, which I read as implying that that a dive shop is not 'well run' because they can't set up a Paypal account, is in my view a bit of sweeping statement hurting the many excellent businesses who have to work with local limitations.

I assume there is no ill intent from @ReefHound, but all on the forum please watch out with these kind of statements without knowing the full details. Scubaboard is in the public domain and these type of comments can unintentionally and unfairly hurt a business' reputation, which is critical in the tourism industry.

Send and Receive International Payments - PayPal Worldwide

 

[ReefHound]

I assume there is no ill intent from @ReefHound, but all on the forum please watch out with these kind of statements without knowing the full details. Scubaboard is in the public domain and these type of comments can unintentionally and unfairly hurt a business' reputation, which is critical in the tourism industry.

You're taking it too literally, the point is that a business should establish some mechanism to allow customers to safely pay. Does Belize prohibit Belizeans from having a US-based bank account or accepting Swift international wire payments or having a corporate Visa, too? Your own image shows two ways a Belize business could withdraw funds from a paypal account.

When I went to Belize, I booked and paid for my hotel online with a credit card. Looking online, looks like the ferries accept online credit card payments.

If you're alleging it is against Belize law to accept a secured online payment by credit card, explain how so many businesses are doing it.

 

[FindingMenno]

I don't know if I'm taking it too literally. I do know that many people browse through Scubaboard as a means to gather information on planning scuba trips. A statement implying that an operator is not reputable while there might be valid reasons for a certain way of doing business, can be hurtful for an operator. I'm just asking for some restraint in making statements without knowing the details.

With regards to some of the things you bring forward:

• I don't know if Belize prohibits their citizens or businesses to have US accounts. It however reported to be very difficult, if not almost impossible, to open an US bank account if you're not a US citizen/resident/business. Not something a small business in Belize would like to spend time on.
• I assume the Belize business and their bank probably accepts wire/swift transfers from US customers, I know we do. Most customers in my experience prefer calling in their credit card details over the phone as opposed to arranging a wire transfer, as being easier.
• Having all your business (Paypal) income on a Belize Visa card might be limiting for a local business; for example when you need to pay your operational costs locally by bank transfer, check, or cash.
• I'm not an expert, but I assume having an US bank account accepting business payments implies that you have to file annual reports and/or taxes in the US. Again probably not something a small business in Belize would like to spend time on.
• Again not as an expert, but I assume having a business presence in the US opens you for potential liability issues. In a business as diving where injury and/or death are a risk, having a liability in a country known for a litigious culture can pose risk for your business, and potentially increase your insurance costs.
• As said earlier, I'm not aware of Belize bank possibilities. I do not know if secure online payment from foreign credit cards to a Belize bank account are possible. However these secure payment often ask for a large fee, sometime 5%. Add that to the 4% the credit card companies charge, and you already loose almost 10% of your gross revenue to payment costs. For a low margin and relatively low volume business as diving that is not doable. I'm not familiar with the business models of hotels and ferry companies, but I can imagine that; they are higher volume/margin and can afford the costs of secure payments, or they have an US entity/bank account.
• At no point have I suggested that it was against Belize law to accept secure payment, I only suggested that the option might not be available to local accounts (as it was until very recently here in Cayman).

In response to your point "that a business should establish some mechanism to allow customers to safely pay.", I just want to bring some perspective that operating locally in other countries that mechanism is either not available, or brings so many drawbacks for customers and business that it is not feasible.

And as said earlier in this thread, in this business reputation is paramount. No business is going to throw away that, and their business success and continuity, to get a few hunderd bucks by abusing credit card details. These business will also have (in my experience) processes that card details are destroyed the moment they are no longer needed.

My point was/is that there might be specific local circumstances that limit the options for local operators compared to how business can be done 'back home'. Statements that suggest an operator is therefore 'unreputable' on a public forum can hurt in a business where reputation is very important. Thus my request for restraint.

 

[ReefHound]

I don't know if I'm taking it too literally. I do know that many people browse through Scubaboard as a means to gather information on planning scuba trips. A statement implying that an operator is not reputable while there might be valid reasons for a certain way of doing business, can be hurtful for an operator. I'm just asking for some restraint in making statements without knowing the details.

By the same token, one should show restraint in making excuses for a business when one does not know if those excuses are applicable. The fact remains, lots of businesses in Belize are able to take secure online credit card payments.

There is nothing preventing Belize Pro Dive from responding in this thread directly.

 

[Ministryofgiraffes]

Who are/is BDS?

 

[Damselfish]

Things work differently in different countries. Sometimes one just needs to get over it.