Passenger Bill of Rights for air travel

[tedtim]

Have no opinion on this issue.

Did the world stop rotating while I was having a nice meal with my wife? No opinion?

 

[OHGoDive]

I would like to say my admiration to OGD for his patience, his clarity, his humor, and most of all for his patience. Great Job.
In the other hand what I would like to say about others would violate the TOS, so I keep it for me...

And 600 is for me!

Ya know, I almost forgot this in all the clutter. Thanks Gregorio, I appreciate the kind words.

 

[OHGoDive]

I just got 3 PM's from that person accusing me of all the industry rebutal points I told they would use. Very scripted. text book

Also, as I thought about it, and looking back. This is the very first post in this thread that anyone brought up PM's.

It was brought up by the only person in this thread to accuse anyone else in this thread of being a stooge of the airline "industry".

So, in your mind, with all due respect, who crossed a line here with respect to propriety regarding personal messages?

Again, just wondering.

I posted my own message. You posted a reference barely veiled to me, my PM, and it's content. There is a word for you.

Propriety and my desire to respect Don's advice on this thread prevents me from using it. Perhaps in a future PM.

And no, SB no longer owns my words that I type here any more than Microsoft owns the words I type into their word processor. I agreed to no such thing when joining this board. The very idea is preposterous.

Although, technically, in your mind, I suppose you'd conclude that my words would be owned by the airline "cartel" paying my way to post responses to absurd accusations.

Please, show me anything in writing, shoot, anything remotely legitimate, that leads you to believe that I am incorrect. Insults and inanity don't count.

None of your ravings, taunts, or accusations make any of your arguments or assertions any more formidable, or any less wrong. Just so you know.

 

[tedtim]

From post 528

Ensure that baggage is handled without delay or injury; if baggage is lost or misplaced, the airline shall notify customer of baggage status within 12 hours and provide compensation equal to current market value of baggage and its contents.

This would require that each passenger provide a detailed list of contents for each bag. Sorry, but as much as I would not trust the airlines, I also see a huge hole for abuse here. Can anyone say insurance scam. "Gee, I just bought that Nikon D2X camera and those five super fine lenses."

The proposal is so badly written and so subject to exceptions:

1. I am travelling to a place where the flight is the last one arriving for the evening. My bags are not on the flight. The next flight does not arrive from anywhere near where my flight originated for over twelve hours. Does this mean that I get compensation equal to current market value of the baggage and its contents even it it arrives on the next available flight. (Think now, you are going to a location in the carribean serviced only once per week by the airline you have selected. Is it REASONABLE to expect that they will be able to find an alternate flight that arrives within twelve hours and can get your luggage on that flight?)

2. I provide a detailed list of items in the bag and a detailed description of the bag. How do you judge the current market value of the contents and the bag itself? What is the condition of the goods? Even if something was relatively new, it may have been used continually; what is the condition? Who will adjudicate the claim? Do I now need to take photos of each of my items in the bag? What will be the acceptable form for providing sufficient detail of the contents and the type of luggage?

3. Suppose you are travelling on multiple airlines that are not part of the same airline group (e.g. Star Alliance). How will you determine who lost the luggage and is thus responsible for payment? Which airline do you make the claim against? Will there be a central clearing house for the claims? Who will pay for maintaining this system?

Pilot Fish. Do you agree or not agree that there will be a cost to implement this section of the proposed Passenger Bill of Rights?

Next issue you'd like to discuss. Remmebr, one at a time.

 

[DandyDon]

Yes, Ted - the proposal is a bit much, even tho my first reaction was that it was reasonable. I do hope a strong compromise can be reached, tho.

BTW, as I understand current industry agreements, when multiple airlines handle your luggage, the responsibility falls on the final airline on you trip, regardless. This prevents the airlines from getting into battles, simplifies claims.

Of the few claims I have had over the years, the amount compensated was reached by agreement between me and the agent. If I wanted to appeal his offer, that meant more time waiting and haggling, so both sides are encouraged to settle on prices and save time.

 

[pilot fish]

From post 528

The proposal is so badly written and so subject to exceptions:

1. I am travelling to a place where the flight is the last one arriving for the evening. My bags are not on the flight. The next flight does not arrive from anywhere near where my flight originated for over twelve hours. Does this mean that I get compensation equal to current market value of the baggage and its contents even it it arrives on the next available flight. (Think now, you are going to a location in the carribean serviced only once per week by the airline you have selected. Is it REASONABLE to expect that they will be able to find an alternate flight that arrives within twelve hours and can get your luggage on that flight?)

2. I provide a detailed list of items in the bag and a detailed description of the bag. How do you judge the current market value of the contents and the bag itself? What is the condition of the goods? Even if something was relatively new, it may have been used continually; what is the condition? Who will adjudicate the claim? Do I now need to take photos of each of my items in the bag? What will be the acceptable form for providing sufficient detail of the contents and the type of luggage?

3. Suppose you are travelling on multiple airlines that are not part of the same airline group (e.g. Star Alliance). How will you determine who lost the luggage and is thus responsible for payment? Which airline do you make the claim against? Will there be a central clearing house for the claims? Who will pay for maintaining this system?

Pilot Fish. Do you agree or not agree that there will be a cost to implement this section of the proposed Passenger Bill of Rights?

As you report it worded, I would agree there would some cost to the airline involved for THAT portion of the P Bill of R, if passed intact, which I doubt it would be. You have to be fair to BOTH sides. NO one wants to put the airlines out of bussiness but no one wants passengers treated like they have been in the past either. Some compromises will have to occcur.

In the example you offer, your bags are not LOST, but *delayed* and would therefore not be entitled to the full market value of listed items.
"How do you judge the current market value of the contents and the bag itself?" The same way they do for you apt and home ins.

In short, there will have to be room for compromise by both parties.

 

[tedtim]

Require that these rights apply equally to all airline code-share partners including international partners.

So how do you approach this aspect of the Passenger Bill of Rights? Which country has the overriding law on this? Do you believe that the USA would accept and respect the law of another country if their laws are more strict than those in place in the USA? Given the number of airlines that fly internationally, how long will it take to negotiate consolidating these laws? In which court would we expect the cases to be adjudicated? Is it realistic to believe that a company would give up its rights and obligations under such organizations as ICAO just to comply with a Passenger Bill of Rights implemented in US law?

IMO this is not only unreasonable, but unattainable and unrealistic. If you believe that one country's government can dictate rules that will apply to all of the passengers on a airline from another country, then I suggest that you do not understand the fundamentals of international business, and perhaps international law. There are multiple treatys and other agreements that would have to be amended.

Next issue you'd like to discuss. Remmebr, one at a time.

Enjoy your trip. I hope you get a chance to post some photos. I am jealous, especially considering the amount of snow we received in the past two days.

 

[pilot fish]

In order to do busines in a foreign country we must meet their standards, products we ship out.Conversely, products that come into the USA must meet ours. If the ticket is bought in the USA, and that carrier has offices in this Country, we sue in this Country. If foreign carriers want to code-share with US airlines they must meet that standard and carry proper ins to meet new requirements. [this is done with Warsaw Convention, as an example]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Convention

The language of ALL airlines is in English so it is not that outrageous to set some basic standards for all carries, once things are agreed upon. Some airlines would, of course, opt out, so travel on those would be at your risk.

Hope to get some good shots but I am in no way a photographer. I'm more interested in good, safe dives. Later.

So how do you approach this aspect of the Passenger Bill of Rights? Which country has the overriding law on this? Do you believe that the USA would accept and respect the law of another country if their laws are more strict than those in place in the USA? Given the number of airlines that fly internationally, how long will it take to negotiate consolidating these laws? In which court would we expect the cases to be adjudicated? Is it realistic to believe that a company would give up its rights and obligations under such organizations as ICAO just to comply with a Passenger Bill of Rights implemented in US law?

IMO this is not only unreasonable, but unattainable and unrealistic. If you believe that one country's government can dictate rules that will apply to all of the passengers on a airline from another country, then I suggest that you do not understand the fundamentals of international business, and perhaps international law. There are multiple treatys and other agreements that would have to be amended.


Enjoy your trip. I hope you get a chance to post some photos. I am jealous, especially considering the amount of snow we received in the past two days.

 

[tedtim]

In order to do busines in a foreign country we must meet their standards, products we ship out.Conversely, products that come into the USA must meet ours. If the ticket is bought in the USA, and that carrier has offices in this Country, we sue in this Country. If foreign carriers want to code-share with US airlines they must meet that standard and carry proper ins to meet new requirements. [this is done with Warsaw Convention, as an example]. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Convention

The language of ALL airlines is in English so it is not that outrageous to set some basic standards for all carries, once things are agreed upon. Some airlines would, of course, opt out, so travel on those would be at your risk.

Hope to get some good shots but I am in no way a photographer. I'm more interested in good, safe dives. Later.

A bit of a contrast here. There is an assumption that the code share airlines will agree, but in reality it will all have to be negotiated. Thus the clarity in the Proposed Passenger Bill of Rights is not truly clarity, but a set of "standards" set by a small group of people. It is no easy task to build such legislation that will account for all of the situations that will occur as well as the cause of such situations. Delays outside of the control of airlines are a significant challange to address.

What do you do when flights are put on "flow control" by air traffic control. Obviously the airlines, and especially the code share airlines, don't have control here.

If you are flying on, say "US Airline Unosuper" (a ficticious name) but code shared through "Non US Air," which airline do you sue? Yes, the code share, but what caused the problem whether it be lost luggage, flight delays due to weather, maintenance delays, etc. Any airline that opts out would have to also opt out of the code share. I doubt that this is economically viable, so it has the effect of forcing something down their throats.

BTW, if the Warsaw convention example is good enough for you, what is wrong with using agencies such as ICAO rather than having to reinvent the wheel just in one country? Please see this discussion from 2003 that illustrates the challenge. http://www.icao.int/icao/en/atb/atconf5/docs/ATConf5_wp111_en.pdf

The issue is much more complicated.

Next issue you'd like to discuss. Remmebr, one at a time.

Over to you - next clause from the Proposed Passenger Bill of Rights is?

 

[pilot fish]

If you codeshare you must abide by code-share rules, or else you opt out and do not share interline travel.There is no assumption, since you either do, or do not. Choice is up to signators that agree to the rules.

I think most of us will agree that something needs to be done and a P B of R is a good start. If nothing else, it gets some airlines, that have treated passengers like so much baggage, to pay more attention and try to conform to humane rules of travel. 11 hours on a parked plane is inhumane.

We have solved problems with more complexity in business, and science, so this should be rather easy.

A bit of a contrast here. There is an assumption that the code share airlines will agree, but in reality it will all have to be negotiated. Thus the clarity in the Proposed Passenger Bill of Rights is not truly clarity, but a set of "standards" set by a small group of people. It is no easy task to build such legislation that will account for all of the situations that will occur as well as the cause of such situations. Delays outside of the control of airlines are a significant challange to address.

What do you do when flights are put on "flow control" by air traffic control. Obviously the airlines, and especially the code share airlines, don't have control here.

If you are flying on, say "US Airline Unosuper" (a ficticious name) but code shared through "Non US Air," which airline do you sue? Yes, the code share, but what caused the problem whether it be lost luggage, flight delays due to weather, maintenance delays, etc. Any airline that opts out would have to also opt out of the code share. I doubt that this is economically viable, so it has the effect of forcing something down their throats.

BTW, if the Warsaw convention example is good enough for you, what is wrong with using agencies such as ICAO rather than having to reinvent the wheel just in one country? Please see this discussion from 2003 that illustrates the challenge. http://www.icao.int/icao/en/atb/atconf5/docs/ATConf5_wp111_en.pdf

The issue is much more complicated.
Over to you - next clause from the Proposed Passenger Bill of Rights is?