Pass or Fail ????

[oldschoolto]

I've been thinking about the old thread about the diver that failed the rescue diver class... We have had a thread about a skydiver that was a danger to himself and others on another site... And someone said it was time to have the bowling talk... So....

Is there a responsibility for a instructor to have a talk with a student.... Is the sport better served by culling students that truly do not have what it takes to be a safe diver ? Both skydiving and scuba diving have grown from a small group of hardcore people that put the time in to learn and be safe, And many tried but never made it because it was hard to pass the course..

I remember getting the boy scouts lifesaving merit badge... The last test was in a ice cold lake with a guy twice your size trying to drown you as you tried to save him!! :shocked2:Now, The test is to swim in a pool and drag a dummy back to the edge of the pool..

Now the sports are sold as " ANYONE " can do it... Just pay us the money and we will give you a rating... Anyone can be a Rescue diver or dive master or a instructor...

Jim...

 

[jcaplins]

I'm pretty sure I understand your point. But we're not trying to be navy combat divers here.
What's often overlooked is personal responsibility. It's your responsibility to know yourself and to know and trust your buddy. It's my responsibility and know myself and know/trust my buddy. If I don't know my buddy, I'm basically a solo diver.

Even with a rescue cert there is no requirement to rescue anyone. Most of the class emphasis is in changing your mindset and halting a chain of events that could lead to an accident.
If you tell me you're a rescue diver, I will watch what you do and see how you really handle things. I won't hire you as an instructor until I feel comfortable you have something to offer. These things are my responsibility to determine.

So, I think just about anyone can do these things. I would give more weight to your merit badge than the rescue card. But in the end, what are they? Just merit badges from different organizations.

(just my opinion folks)

 

[decompression]

As an instructor, I have a policy that no one fails. I'm willing to work with them until I'm satisfied that they have met the requirements to pass. This doesn't always happen in the normally scheduled time.

 

[Steve_C]

I:shocked2:Now, The test is to swim in a pool and drag a dummy back to the edge of the pool..

Sad to hear that. One of my fondest child hood memories is of the life saving merit badge I earned at scout camp. I had already done red cross junior life saving. In camp had this hard ass instructor, not well liked, that we were to drag the length of the pool. I saw the first 4 scouts before me fail because he got loose. I preferred to carry up on my hip. So as soon as I came up to him i grabbed hold of the muscle in the armpit and rolled him up on my side and started swimming with my head under water most of the time. He struggled more and more, I grabbed tighter and tighter. We get to the end and I stop and he yells at me that he had been trying to tell me for 2/3 of the pool that I had passed. My buddy saw what had happened and did the same thing on the other arm. Two things happened.

1. We were the only two that passed.

2. For the next few days the instructor walked around, unable to fully lower his arms, looking like a chicken.

Ah, the good old days.

 

[boulderjohn]

As an instructor, I have a policy that no one fails. I'm willing to work with them until I'm satisfied that they have met the requirements to pass. This doesn't always happen in the normally scheduled time.

I agree. In education terms, it is called standards-based education. You keep working at it until you reach the standards.

I just completed the most difficult weekend of instruction in my life. It was just the pool and academic sessions, where it is my job to certify that the students are ready to go to their OW dives and get fully certified. I had 8 students. Four of them were 12 years old or younger. One was in his late teens. Two were women well past middle age. The eighth was a young adult female.

In the classroom, I discovered on the first day that two of the younger children had only started doing the reading and had not gotten past the first chapter. By the second day they had gotten farther, but they had not finished. One of the other 12-year olds had only read the first two chapters by the first day, and she barely got it all read by the second day. She failed the final exam by one question. So the two boys and she did not pass the final exam. The other 11 year old scored nearly 90%, and everyone else had almost perfect scores.

In the pool, the two older women were a challenge, and one of them was one of the most needy students I have ever had. She struggled with everything, and it took many repetitions of skills before I was satisfied she had them down. Still, she was not there overall. When we did the no mask swim and mask replacement, she had trouble and panicked. I told her I could not send her out for her OW dives if I thought there was any chance she could panic. She had to do all skills to the level that I could be convinced she could do them any time she had to with no trouble. She understood.

So, where do the students stand today? Four of them (half) passed at the end of the scheduled class. They leave the class fully confident that they will excel in their OW dives. The 12-year old girl who failed the final came in the next day and I went over the materials for a couple hours before giving her another final, which she passed. The two boys who had not read the material are going to have to schedule a time with me or another instructor (after they finally finish reading the materials) to go over them and take the final exam. The lady will have to schedule time with me or another instructor to get into the pool and keep working until she clearly shows that she can do everything fluidly and with enough confidence to indicate that she is not going to panic in case of a problem.

Total--As of now, 5/8 are ready to go on, and 3 need more work. But no one failed.

In education, we say that in traditional education, time is the standard and learning is the variable. In standards-based education, learning is the standard and time is the variable.

 

[decompression]

Well done John.....holy cats!

 

[TMHeimer]

It shows your dedication John. If I were an instructor I don't think I'd have the patience with those that didn't even do the reading. I have my ideas about 12 year olds doing scuba at all, but that's just me. I do agree with jCaplins that "just about anyone CAN do these things". I also recall a recent post somewhere about some requirements (by a NAUI instructor I think) students must do before donning scuba equipment--like donning boots & fins while floating, and some other stuff. Not a requirement of PADI, but this is not stuff that people should find hard if they are ready for scuba. Problem is some people just aren't --there's that word-- "comfortable" enough in water in the first place.

 

[KeithG]

Now the sports are sold as " ANYONE " can do it... Just pay us the money and we will give you a rating... Anyone can be a Rescue diver or dive master or a instructor...

Jim...

I disagree with "anyone can do it". Many, most, but not all are capable. And this is not unique to scuba. there are lots of activities that some people are not capable of, no matter how training or coaching they get. Want to hear me sing? Or play the piano?

BUT: I also believe that you should not flunk someone at their first attempt. Some of us are slow learners and / or not physically adroit.

When I am not diving, I also golf and curl (rocks & ice & beer - it's a canadian thing). At both golf and curling I witness people that are so abysmally incompetent that I hope I never encounter a diver with the same lack of skills - underwater it can become dangerous.

 

[oldschoolto]

I disagree with "anyone can do it". Many, most, but not all are capable. And this is not unique to scuba. there are lots of activities that some people are not capable of, no matter how training or coaching they get. Want to hear me sing? Or play the piano?

BUT: I also believe that you should not flunk someone at their first attempt. Some of us are slow learners and / or not physically adroit.

When I am not diving, I also golf and curl (rocks & ice & beer - it's a canadian thing). At both golf and curling I witness people that are so abysmally incompetent that I hope I never encounter a diver with the same lack of skills - underwater it can become dangerous.

That is the point I'm getting at... It's not to fail a person that just needs extra work... I've had plenty of skydiving students that took time to get it right.... I'm talking about the person that is just not cut out for the sport and is a accident waiting to happen... And a person could be fine as a rec diver in 30' -40' feet of warm water but no way should be a cold water cave diver....

Jim...

 

[KeithG]

And a person could be fine as a rec diver in 30' -40' feet of warm water but no way should be a cold water cave diver....

Jim...

OK: So you've seen me dive?

Great point. These dives require different levels of skill and training. I can do the warm water stuff. No issues. I have both the skills and training. I have no idea if I could master cold water caves. I could spend lots of cash on training, but can not claim that I will be able to develop the necessary skills. (This is based on the assumption that cold water caves is harder...)

I have played hockey for over 40 years. I have been exposed to large quantities of training as I played at a competitive level in my youth. I am not anywhere close to NHL caliber. Never was, never could be. I do not have the eye-hand co-ordination, size or strength required. No amount of training can overcome these issues.

I have also abandoned my futile dream of becoming a F1 driver. Apparently the money I spent on racing school could have been better applied to piano lessons. Or not!