Part time vs full time instructors

[sea_ledford]

WIth every shop I know, it is the opposite. The shop takes the money, and they give the instructor a very small cut. What you describe would only be true for advanced classes the shop did not normally offer. In the two shops in which I worked, the instructor cut for a multi-hundred dollar course would var between $15-$25 dollars. IN once course I taught, I got $10 per student.

$ per student, or $ per student per day? When I was at a shop I think it was $25/student/day, so a class of 4 students would net the instructor $400 for an OW course. Assuming no remediation work, which wouldn't be covered by the shop anyway. That works out to $12.5/hour for the standard 2 4-hour pool sessions, 2 4-hour lectures and 2 8-hour open water days. Unfortunately with only 2 students, it's the same amount of work for half the pay. Suddenly I understand the 8 to 1 ratio. With elearning it's probably less since there is no need for 8 hours of lecture. More like 2 for paperwork and review.

Either way, it's highway robbery.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

$ per student, or $ per student per day? When I was at a shop I think it was $25/student/day, so a class of 4 students would net the instructor $400 for an OW course. Assuming no remediation work, which wouldn't be covered by the shop anyway. That works out to $12.5/hour for the standard 2 4-hour pool sessions, 2 4-hour lectures and 2 8-hour open water days. Unfortunately with only 2 students, it's the same amount of work for half the pay. Suddenly I understand the 8 to 1 ratio. With elearning it's probably less since there is no need for 8 hours of lecture. More like 2 for paperwork and review.

Either way, it's highway robbery.

Repeating the math for my situation. When I was at a shop, it was $50 / student.

6 hours of pool time, plus let's say 2 hours for driving, setting up: 8 hours

2 days of open water, 6 hours each with driving, equipment cleaning etc: 12 hours

10 hours of classroom

30 hours total.

$50/30 is $1.67 per student per hour.

Trying to make minimum wage of $15/hour. That's 9 students.

Yup. That's why instructors pack them in. I've heard a number say "it just isn't worth my time." I preferred 4 students, but the shop didn't. I took the pay cut as I was developing my program.

But now that I'm independent, I take only 2 students. I have the costs in a spreadsheet to share with prospective students. They can decide if based on what I offer, and after my costs, is my hourly rate fair (basically minimum wage).

 

[NAM001]

WIth every shop I know, it is the opposite. The shop takes the money, and they give the instructor a very small cut. What you describe would only be true for advanced classes the shop did not normally offer. In the two shops in which I worked, the instructor cut for a multi-hundred dollar course would var between $15-$25 dollars. IN once course I taught, I got $10 per student.

Yes and I think that is the way it works if the shop schedules the class. if the instructor schedules the class like i often see here then the shop takes a cut for pool and class space in combination with hopes of selling a bunch of gear to boot. I think the key to this is who is sponsoring the class. Its a ballance of does the shop need the instructor or the instructor needing a place to work from. You use of the words "classes the shop did not normally offer" very likely prevails.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Yes and I think that is the way it works if the shop schedules the class. if the instructor schedules the class like i often see here then the shop takes a cut for pool and class space in combination with hopes of selling a bunch of gear to boot. I think the key to this is who is sponsoring the class. Its a ballance of does the shop need the instructor or the instructor needing a place to work from. You use of the words "classes the shop did not normally offer" very likely prevails.

Not in my area. I would set up con ed, the student paid the shop, I got a cut.

 

[NAM001]

$ per student, or $ per student per day? When I was at a shop I think it was $25/student/day, so a class of 4 students would net the instructor $400 for an OW course. Assuming no remediation work, which wouldn't be covered by the shop anyway. That works out to $12.5/hour for the standard 2 4-hour pool sessions, 2 4-hour lectures and 2 8-hour open water days. Unfortunately with only 2 students, it's the same amount of work for half the pay. Suddenly I understand the 8 to 1 ratio. With elearning it's probably less since there is no need for 8 hours of lecture. More like 2 for paperwork and review.

Either way, it's highway robbery.

IMO it is very much worth it to have a private or semi private class (min number of students) max attention time per student I have no problem paying or recommending someone else paying for private or near private classes. Smaller groups shortens the time table a lot also.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

IMO it is very much worth it to have a private or semi private class (min number of students) max attention time per student I have no problem paying or recommending someone else paying for private or near private classes. Smaller groups shortens the time table a lot also.

People who want to learn generally do. They get the smaller class sizes. But many people are driven just by price. They just want the c-card. If being on the knees, staring at silt results in a c-card that is recognized the same as one where they have to be neutrally buoyant, trim, and deploy a DSMB without changing depth significantly, why bother with the latter?

 

[boulderjohn]

In the first shop with which I worked, instructors doing certification courses (the OW portion of the OW course, AOW, or Rescue, got $35 per student who they certified. If they did not certify the student, there was no pay. The poor incentive working in that system was obvious, but here is an example of how it worked out in one situation.

I was a DM assisting with an OW session. The instructor had scheduled a Rescue Diver student to come by after the OW students were done. As a DM I was only paid ($25 total) for assisting the OW class, but I helped out with the Rescue class since I had to hang around anyway. This was the old curriculum, with the student having to do 12 scenarios. We did most of the scenarios the first day. On the second day, when we finished the 11th scenario, we were all exhausted and glad to be near done. Unfortunately, a massive thunderstorm arrived, and we could not do it. The next day, another instructor went out with the student and did the 12th scenario. The instructor who did the 12th scenario got $35, because he certified the student. The one who did all the work in the classroom, all the work in the pool, and all the OW work for the first 11 scenarios got nothing.

 

[boulderjohn]

$ per student, or $ per student per day? When I was at a shop I think it was $25/student/day, so a class of 4 students would net the instructor $400 for an OW course.

It was $25 per student for the CW portion of the OW course, which took two days. An instructor with a class of 4 students would get $200 for the weekend, including the academic sessions.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yes and I think that is the way it works if the shop schedules the class. if the instructor schedules the class like i often see here then the shop takes a cut for pool and class space in combination with hopes of selling a bunch of gear to boot. I think the key to this is who is sponsoring the class. Its a ballance of does the shop need the instructor or the instructor needing a place to work from. You use of the words "classes the shop did not normally offer" very likely prevails.

What you see here is part of the legal problems associated with scuba instruction in the US. With that first shop, we were classified as contract workers. With the shop scheduling the classes (and other such issues), however, we were legally employees. This came to a head was when we discovered that different instructors were being paid at different rates. When we asked why, we learned that the ones who were being paid at the higher rate also did other work for the store (like retail sales) and were therefore employees. As employees, they had to be paid at the higher rate legally. As it turned out, all the instructors working for the store were women, and all the contract instructors were men, so the shop (managed by a woman) was paying all the women more than all the men (except her partner, who also did work for the store). When this threatened to blow up, the shop realized they were on shaky legal ground and changed the pay system, making everyone an employee (which is what they legally were all along).

The second shop also made instructors employees, but with its system of paying per pupil, instructors teaching low enrollment classes (like my specialty and tech classes) quite often made less than minimum age--sometimes far less. When I pointed this out to the director of instruction, he showed his knowledge of labor law by saying that it was legal to pay less than minimum wage in a profession where the employee might get tips--which for us might happen once every couple of months. He used wait staff as an example, and he was quite dubious when I told him that if wait staff do not get minimum wage with their added tips, management is legally required to make up the difference. He was not moved by that argument, and it is one of the reasons I don't work there anymore.

In summary, I think that if the IRS randomly checked how dive shops pay employees, there would be a whole lot of illegalities found across the country.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

In summary, I think that if the IRS randomly checked how dive shops pay employees, there would be a whole lot of illegalities found across the country.

Agreed.