Panicked diver not exhaling during ascent?

[marinediva]

Whilst waiting to do my IDC I assisted an instructor doing an advanced course. On the deep dive we had all gone to 30m and had just come off the decent line. I watched as the instructor signed to everyone to start swimming after him, and then suddenly saw one student start to take off back up the line. This guy was really starting to move fast. He was holding his mask and swimming frantically. I took off after him and managed to catch his leg somewhere near the 20m mark. I exhaled and tried to drag him down but he broke free and continued at a frightening pace. I finally caught up to him at eightm, my computer was going nuts and managed to mount his tank at the back and drag it backwards. He fought for a couple of seconds and after I had vented his BCD and adjusted my own he started to relax. I then moved to the front and tried to calm him, his mask had filled with water. Yeap, the fool was on the way to the surface to clear his mask. I reminded him through demonstration of how to clear and he managed to on his second try. We moved slowly to sixm and waited for six minutes doing a safety stop.
We did not enter the water again that day.

I am not sure if this would work in an OOa situation and I can honestly say I would not attempt this again. It is interesting, that the instructor later berated me for taking a student to the surface to clear a mask! Thankgod two students had witnessed what had happened and informed him that I had actually stopped this guy from serious injury.

In answer to the question how do you get them to exhale, I would have no hesitation in a quick firm yet gentle push to the stomach, if that didnt work, I would hit their purge button.

 

[DaleC]

Is this taught somewhere???

I don't want to sound too opinionated but punching or kneeing someone who is bolting for some unknown reason has got to be the single stupidest piece of advise I've ever heard of. Do you know why they are panicing? As someone else said, what if they are on the bottom of a breath and OOA? Now you've kneed them forcefully and they exhale the last of it and inhale saltwater. Congratulations, Instead of becoming a rescuer - clap clap clap you've just become a murderer (whether someone can testify or not).
If you disagree just picture yourself explaining it all to the family
"yes Joe drowned while diving. I saw him swim past and punched him in the gut but it didn't help. I'm sorry, I tried my best. Pehaps if I had hit him harder."

Slow their ascent without putting yourself at risk - yes.
Mess with someones respiritory system under water - no.

 

[marinediva]

I do not think people are suggesting to punch the crap out of them,
it only takes a gentle firm push, seems to me you are damed if you do and damed it you don't.
Murderer.......thats a bit harsh....

 

[Geoff_H]

How so? Is the dead diver going to testify against you?

Without wishing to state the obvious, there might be other people in the water who observed what is going on.

 

[Web Monkey]

I do not think people are suggesting to punch the crap out of them,
it only takes a gentle firm push, seems to me you are damed if you do and damed it you don't.
Murderer.......thats a bit harsh....

Although you might very well be "damned if you do", I don't see any way you could be "damned if you don't". There's no requirement or even recommendation that anybody risk their life to try to save someone else, especially not using a procedure that is not approved by any agency and can result in severe injury or death for both the victim and the rescuer.

The only thing worse than a dead panicked diver is a dead panicked diver and a dead rescuer.

As for "murderer", I'm no a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that doing something to someone that causes or contributes to their death is illegal.

Terry

 

[TSandM]

Some situations are just no win. Even in doubles, I've found it hard to stop people who are very buoyant, and those were people who weren't TRYING to go up. Stopping someone in total panic who is determined to get to the surface would be extremely difficult. Doing it in such a way that you were able to observe that they weren't breathing and try to do something about it would be an amazing feat.

I think the only time anybody's going to get a chance to make someone exhale is with a non-panicked student who's just gotten too buoyant or is ascending deliberately and has forgotten to breathe. There, a gentle push to the solar plexus might get someone started breathing again.

 

[DaleC]

I do not think people are suggesting to punch the crap out of them,
it only takes a gentle firm push, seems to me you are damed if you do and damed it you don't.

The terms were, knee to the gut, elbow to the gut, punch to the gut/chest.
The question is, how do you induce a slow controlled exhalation of air. None of those does that. They all cause a sudden exhalation followed immediately by a sharp inhalation. If a diver is OOA when that occurs they are dead. You are not damned if you don't because there is no common sense precidence telling you to do so. You could be damned if you do because there is common sense precidence telling you not to.

Murderer.......thats a bit harsh....

OK I'll let you plead out to manslaughter but you have to give up your homies

As others suggest, controlling a truly paniced diver is nearly impossible. The best bet is to stand by and assist when you can. I have experienced being tangled up with a paniced swimmer, submerging me in an attempt to push themselves out of the water. The only way I escaped that one was by swimming directly to the bottom of the pool until self preservation made them let go and bolt for the surface.

There was a tandem skydiving accident about one mile from my house that illustrates the dangers perfectly. An experienced instructor had a man strapped in front of him who paniced when they were in the free fall portion of the jump. The panicing man grabbed the instructors arms in a death grip and froze. The people on the ground heard the instructor yelling at the man to let go so he could deploy the chute all the way down. This was in the days before automatic deployment systems.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

You are to slow the ascent, if possible, offer your octo, follow safely. Those are your options. Forcing and exhale in a panicked diver will equate to attack and they, being panicked, will almost certainly react violently. You will further endanger them and yourself.

At some point, you have to realize that you may only be softening a hard situation. You cannot always solve it. Your job is to evaluate and hopefully head off panic situations or to render aid in one.

And Dale is right. If you mistake the situation and force an exhale that results in the diver's death, You Will be liable for prosecution. Be careful. This is not a good idea.

 

[marinediva]

Dale I never used any of those terms, which you described, and the fact is I have stopped a panicing diver from getting to the surface and doing some extreme damage to himself from 30m proves I am willing and quick thinking enough to allow training to kick in.

I suggested a quick firm yet gentle push to the stomach, something that will not wind him but will simply get him to wake up from the tunnel vision he is obviously experiencing, what I have omitted is the fact I would take my own mouth piece out and show him bubbles.

Someone else bought up an OOA situation, that was not in the original question.

But once again, it really depends on the situation. I will state as I have stated before there is no right or wrong way to rescue someone there is only the way that gets positive results. I believe a situation like this is something that depends entirely on the circumstances.

Murder.....sorry ONLY in the US me thinks, assult causing death, maybe, careless duty of care causing death, maybe, and for the record I did state I would not do that again.
I let the student go to the surface and end up in a chamber or even die, instead of attempting to take off after him.

So the damned if you dont part is the knowing that I didnt try to help him.
thanks folks......

 

[pwl]

i've chased OW students up from "only" 12m in the past, trying to keep them down as they panic and bolt, but these days i won't do it. there are a couple of key things to consider:

- if you injure yourself chasing the panicked diver up, then you're unlikely to be able to help them very much on the surface

- if you chase after one panicked person in a group you're looking after, what happens to the rest of the group? abandoning the others in order to *possibly* help one may not be the best approach overall

for students on the OW course, we usually have relatively shallow depths for the express purpose of reducing the risk of injury due to a panicked flight for the surface. for divers who are qualified OW they are assumed to understand the risks and consequences of rapid ascent: it's not your responsibility to dive for them - your responsibility (if any at all) is to be in a fit condition to assist them once they've put themselves in a situation where they need rescuing.