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There was no SMB use when I took PADI classes in the late 90’s.
It wasn’t until TDI that I used or even heard of SMB’s.
Do they teach shooting bags in PADI recreational courses now?

Just having completed my PADI OW, on our first ocean dive our instructor had us blow up an SMB at the surface and that was about it.
 
I see often here on SB this point about never kneeling and doing all the training midwater.
I respect every opinion, but really I cannot understand what is "inherently wrong" doing part of the training kneeling.
During my first course, back in 1975, with Cmas, we made a lot of work kneeling, both freediving and with scuba systems. Followed by a lot of work neutrally buoyant.
The course was 6 months long, and the first three months were without breathing apparatus.
One very useful excercise was a 90" apnea while kneeling on the bottom of the pool, looking up, and slowly rotating the head for showing the instructor that you did not pass out...
In the second part of the course we switched to Scuba systems. Mostly the ARO, a CC pure oxygen rebreather.
The ARO requires to calibrate accurately the amount of oxygen in the counter lung so that you are perfectly neutrally buoyant.
We had to repeat all the excercises previously done holding your breath and kneeling on the bottom (for example removing the mask and evacuating it again) while instead floating midwater and breathing from the ARO.
I did find an excellwnt way of training, so I have nothing against first learning a skill while kneeling, and later on having to perform the same midwater.
On the other hand with modern ultra-short courses probably there is not enough time for doing such a slow progression, and jumping over entirely the part of course done without scuba system and kneeling makes it possible to keep it shorter.
So a kneeling-free course, for me, is just a time-saving shortcut.
I still prefer longer, more thorough training, adding the pieces of equipment one after the other.
This is how I trained my two sons, starting with breath-holding, then using a scuba OC system without BCD, and adding the BCD only at the end, after several years.
Ok, with adults you can run faster, but really I cannot see how in a single weekend it is possible to train and certify an OW diver. In a single weekend of course there is no time enough for first learning the skills while kneeling, and then while floating midwater. I agree that it is better to strip away the kneeling part than stripping away the floating part.
But in both cases this will be a too short training...
So the point for me is not kneeling vs floating, the point is making the course long enough or not.
When it is long enough, there will be proper space for performing the skill in different conditions (holding your breath or using a scuba system, on the bottom or midwater, kneeling or horizontal, neutrally buoyant in vertical or horizontal trim, etc.)
You can achieve good results with part of the course on the knees, but then you have to reweight your students once you switch to neutral buoyancy or you will make them struggle to control their depth even more by having to compensate with too much weight.

You simply cannot achieve the same results in the same amount of time. Getting students comfortable being neutrally buoyant and trim, rising and falling with their breath makes all the other skills smoother. A little work upfront results in greater time savings later.

Very few people want long courses and in four OW dives you can create drysuit divers (minus the cert as that requires one more dive) who don’t crater or cork, and can deploy a DSMB from 5 meters.

But it all hinges on keeping them off the knees.
 
n four OW dives you can create drysuit divers (minus the cert as that requires one more dive) who don’t crater or cork, and can deploy a DSMB from 5 meters.
Kinda depends on the diver and their motivation. But your point is taken.
 
I see often here on SB this point about never kneeling and doing all the training midwater.
I respect every opinion, but really I cannot understand what is "inherently wrong" doing part of the training kneeling.
During my first course, back in 1975, with Cmas, we made a lot of work kneeling, both freediving and with scuba systems. Followed by a lot of work neutrally buoyant.
The course was 6 months long, and the first three months were without breathing apparatus.
One very useful excercise was a 90" apnea while kneeling on the bottom of the pool, looking up, and slowly rotating the head for showing the instructor that you did not pass out...
In the second part of the course we switched to Scuba systems. Mostly the ARO, a CC pure oxygen rebreather.
The ARO requires to calibrate accurately the amount of oxygen in the counter lung so that you are perfectly neutrally buoyant.
We had to repeat all the excercises previously done holding your breath and kneeling on the bottom (for example removing the mask and evacuating it again) while instead floating midwater and breathing from the ARO.
I did find an excellwnt way of training, so I have nothing against first learning a skill while kneeling, and later on having to perform the same midwater.
On the other hand with modern ultra-short courses probably there is not enough time for doing such a slow progression, and jumping over entirely the part of course done without scuba system and kneeling makes it possible to keep it shorter.
So a kneeling-free course, for me, is just a time-saving shortcut.
I still prefer longer, more thorough training, adding the pieces of equipment one after the other.
This is how I trained my two sons, starting with breath-holding, then using a scuba OC system without BCD, and adding the BCD only at the end, after several years.
Ok, with adults you can run faster, but really I cannot see how in a single weekend it is possible to train and certify an OW diver. In a single weekend of course there is no time enough for first learning the skills while kneeling, and then while floating midwater. I agree that it is better to strip away the kneeling part than stripping away the floating part.
But in both cases this will be a too short training...
So the point for me is not kneeling vs floating, the point is making the course long enough or not.
When it is long enough, there will be proper space for performing the skill in different conditions (holding your breath or using a scuba system, on the bottom or midwater, kneeling or horizontal, neutrally buoyant in vertical or horizontal trim, etc.)
Excellent post. Agree on all points. The idea of a longer course is ideal, as you say, where kneeling can be done at first, then plenty of time to do those 6-7 skills neutral. Of course, not to be in today's world as you said--people want it short and not costly.
Let me throw this out -- So I learned those 6-7 appropriate NB skills on my knees, as did probably every instructor and DM on the shop's staff. Perhaps we many just "perfected" our buoyancy by working on them neutrally after receiving OW cert.--- That would be the second part of your proposed longer course, just doing it on your own.
Or in my case, just diving regularly and improving my buoyancy ability to close to where it is now after maybe 5-10 dives.
But yeah, I agree that doing everything possible neutrally in today's quickie courses will produce divers who are better neutrally on their first post OW dive.
 
n four OW dives you can create drysuit divers (minus the cert as that requires one more dive) who don’t crater or cork, and can deploy a DSMB from 5 meters.
Kinda depends on the diver and their motivation.
May I be so bold as to assume that one who chooses to certify in water requiring a drysuit perhaps is a smidgen more motivated than the average warm water resort bucket list type of student?
 
May I be so bold as to assume that one who chooses to certify in water requiring a drysuit perhaps is a smidgen more motivated than the average warm water resort bucket list type of student?
I was hoping someone would pick up on that gentle hint! Congratulations!
 
I was hoping someone would pick up on that gentle hint! Congratulations!
Online communication is often more complicated than IRL communication. Usually, we don't pick up on those minor non-verbal signals.
 
May I be so bold as to assume that one who chooses to certify in water requiring a drysuit perhaps is a smidgen more motivated than the average warm water resort bucket list type of student?
Not really. Most people certify to go somewhere tropical on vacation and just want to get certified locally to avoid wasting vacation time with a course.

They do so in a dry suit for the sake of comfort as a 7 mil in 50 something degree water in 59 degree something air temperatures is not pleasant.

Hasn’t anyone considered that dry suit is another gas space to manage?
 
They do so in a dry suit for the sake of comfort as a 7 mil in 50 something degree water in 59 degree something air temperatures is not pleasant.
Oh well. Me, I thoroughly believe that if you need a 7 mil, or even worse, a 7+5 or a 7+7, you'd be better off diving dry. Particularly during the SI.

Hasn’t anyone considered that dry suit is another gas space to manage?
Those of us who (figuratively) grow up diving dry kinda take this as natural. It's just how the world is, and we get confused when we're put in a wetsuit.
 
Ladies and gents.

When I taught for shops, few of my students wanted to dive in cold water. Likely they would have preferred to have a course where they are on the knees and inflate an inflatable doll at the surface if they knew they’d be required to be neutrally buoyant and deploy a DSMB and not crater or cork.

But they signed up with the shop assuming that all instructors are the same. They are except for me and one other guy somewhat.

Motivated? Pretty much no. If I gave them the option of just giving them the c card without getting into the Puget Sound, many would have taken me up on it (not that I’d ever do that).

Now that I’m independent, I don’t accept students like that. I’m not the right instructor for everyone. Now I only teach those who are motivated to continue diving in the Puget Sound. My course with dive planning and all makes zero sense for vacation divers.
 
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