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PADI?

Discussion in 'Basic Scuba Discussions' started by OnTheMark, Aug 9, 2020.

  1. wetb4igetinthewater

    wetb4igetinthewater Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    I groaned that when I crossed over to SSI and they talk about NB, there were still so many images and skills videos with people on their knees. Same with SDI (being fair here).
     
  2. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    In my talks with PADI when we published that first article on neutrally buoyant instruction, one of the first things I pointed out to them was an observation by Peter Rothschild that there was not a single picture or video of a neutrally buoyant, in trim diver in the OW course. PADI's immediate reply was literally "OMG!," followed by a promise to fix it. Now there is not a single picture or video (to my knowledge) of divers on their knees.

    I am really surprised by the fact that SSI has not done more. When I was experimenting with neutrally buoyant OW instruction, I cleared everything I did with the PADI Course Director who was in charge of instruction at the shop. He was very impressed with the results, and he eventually made it a requirement for all instructors at the shop (about a dozen). He is one of the signers on the article we published in the PADI Undersea Journal. After that, the shop (and he) switched to SSI. When SSI was sold, many of their top officials quit, and my former Course Director ent to headquarters, and he has been for some years now one of the top people in their training department. When that happened, I expected them to go all in on neutral buoyancy instruction, but it has not happened.

    As for SDI, Mark Powell recently said that SDI instructors are required to do all OW instruction neutrally buoyant. was he not correct?
     
  3. wetb4igetinthewater

    wetb4igetinthewater Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Mark is obviously a better source than me. However, I don't believe that SDI requires OW to be NB/trim.

    I wish it were, and I do know that there is work to make that so (such as all ITs have to be competent to teach NB/trim, and if they can't after TBD time, there's the door). But I don't believe that is the case yet, as I'm pretty sure an on-the-knees local op still teaches on the knees (they added that to their PADI offerings). However, I believe they have the potential to do so as they do advertise a 1:2 ratio (my guess through a lot of DMs).

    But honestly, I am not paying too close attention as I'm only doing internet dives right now and going inactive teaching status until this Covid19 situation is cleared up. I prioritize having my elderly parents spend time with their granddaughter over teaching. Right now, those are mutually exclusive.
     
  4. Hartattack

    Hartattack PADI Pro

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Campaign, IL
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    Um... What?
     
  5. boulderjohn

    boulderjohn Technical Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    I didn't think so either, and I am perplexed about it.

    You and I were part of a FaceBook discussion with him in which we wrote in detail about the publication of the PADI article on neutral buoyancy instruction. I gave a lot of details about my discussions with PADI leading to the article, and we talked about the changes PADI made after that publication to promote neutral buoyancy instruction. He was very much part of that discussion. As you will recall, it was all preparatory for a webinar he was going to present on neutral buoyancy instruction. I take it you did not attend the webinar. I did.

    In the presentation, several instructors talked about how much better that kind of instruction was. I thought it was well done. As we went along, people were posting questions. A number of PADI instructors were part of it, and (disappointingly for me), it was new to them, and they wondered in their questions if PADI allowed it. I wrote a question asking what could be done to make agencies more active in promoting it.

    At the end, he answered questions. He answered the questions about PADI by saying he was not a PADI instructor and had no idea if PADI standards allowed it. He then answered my question (so he knew I was in attendance) by saying that SDI required it of all instructors. His clear message was that if you are PADI and want to teach this way, you need to cross over to SDI.
     
  6. wetb4igetinthewater

    wetb4igetinthewater Instructor ScubaBoard Supporter

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    Location: Seattle
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    I don’t think Mark said that but I’ll go look.

    I was teaching NB/trim while at PADI and I went over in detail with Bret Lorea at PADI about my steps.

    You can teach NB/trIm at any agency. Of the mainstream agencies, only RAID and NASE require that each skill must be performed NB. However they don’t ban placing students in the knees. If this is incorrect, someone please chime in.
     
  7. pauldw

    pauldw Solo Diver

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    This is an inspiration. More people should kneel together in prayer. It makes everything go better, including dives. As long as there isn't a stingray right there. Then people should be wearing cups. Or praying harder.

    Now, now, let's not be pissy. The flaw in your argument is the "want to learn more about..." part. It carries the assumption that people taking a PADI specialty course actually will learn something substantial about the subject of the course. If PADI specialty courses taught people things, it would be great for the people taking them. But the materials are thin, the instruction is often no better, and too frequently students are basically paying for a guided, themed dive. To wit: my last PADI specialty class involved a single small handout, a few minutes of instruction in the parking lot before diving, and then two back to back dives in which we swam in circles for awhile. This is not an atypical experience. With regard to your example, if I wanted to be an underwater naturalist, then instead of paying a fee to PADI for getting just some token training, I'd do something like, oh, read this book that's conveniently sitting in my family room: upload_2020-8-10_21-1-2.png

    And you people who don't believe in being prepared for emergencies, stop dissing the Zombie Apocalypse Diver course! I'd dearly love to take that one. I'd throw away the rest of my cards and just keep that one.
     
    Colliam7 likes this.
  8. Stoo

    Stoo NAUI Instructor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Freelton & Tobermory, Ontario, Canada
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    I'd say you summarized it fairly well. I did my NAUI ITC in '78. Within a few days, I received a letter from something called PADI. I'd barely heard of it. The letter was an offer... send us $25 and we'll send you a PADI Instructor card. I declined, and never really regretted it.

    At the other end of the spectrum, my daughter spent a season in Utila, where she learned to dive. It seems like every other day, she completed another certification. It got ridiculous when she told me was going to be starting a DM course shortly. She had NEVER been diving outside of a course. I went down to visit, and she had reasonable knowledge, so my concern wasn't so much with the actual training, but the fact that she'd spent more money on instruction than I thought was possible.

    As a business model for shops, PADI is great I think. Extract money from the same people over and over and over. With each course, just teach them enough to progress to another course.

    I'd much rather train someone well once or twice, not 26 times.

    But you need not hide your PADI card. Literally, everyone has 14 of them.

    Except me. I have zero.
     
  9. TMHeimer

    TMHeimer Divemaster

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    Location: Dartmouth,NS,Canada(Eastern Passage-Atlantic)
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    Click expand to view my reply. I hate when I forget to reply after QUOTE.
     
  10. KWS

    KWS ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
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    POINT of view WELL TAKEN ESPECIALLY WHeN AN INSTRUCTOR DEPENDS ON A SHOP FOR A POOL OR OTHER. ((OOPS caps),, needed resources. As far as word of mouth ,,, that situation is just as common as lazy instructors are. When there are good instructors they are often known by selective groups of divers. If a new student is looking for certifying they will get steered to them just as often as getting steered to the bad ones. The difference is who does the referal and what substance the referal was based on. You referenced gratefuldiver and going beyond min standards. Those instructors are seldom if ever a problem. its the ones that again are looking for a fast buck with the minimal effort. Another thing is that if you are in a community where there are several instructors ,, you have to be good to stand out from the others and some one has to know about the best ones available. .... When you are one of only a couple instructors ,,, they are now the only game in town,, then the game rules change and quality suffers. These are often guys that sell courses a little cheaper has no services available to themselves. perhaps works for a fire department where they get free air from, sells gear out of their basement. and use the instructor gig as a way to get a deductable pool or shop at their home.. In my area we have more than a few home instructors that are like that. and in perhaps a 2500 sq mile area we have 2 shops that I know of. Dozens of instructors exist but the normal person has no way of finding them except through referals. Shops dont normally refer instructors that they do not use,,, or get a cut from. Yes local economies drive that also. Then I can drive 100 miles to get to an area where shops and instructors are abundant, competition in high and it is again a coin toss at to get ,, like you said ,, sell them gear get them in and out and say next student. The best ones I have found are affiliated with clubs and have to look the others in the eye because those students will often join the club the instructor is a member of.. You cant hide your failures in that situation. The membership sets the standard as to what they will or will not dive with. The instructor topic is a age old one. just like no 2 instructors are the same . so it is with the students,,and with that,, the best methods to achieve the greatest learning. the only true measurement is what you end up with.
     

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