PADI Wreck dive course

[MHK]

PADI penetration is defined as 1/3 air to get in 1/3 to exit, 1/3 in reserve. Also no more than 40 meters total travel including descent, and you must see the natural light of your entrance at all times during penetration.

If this is really what PADI is teaching then they need to revisit their training procedures, this will get someone killed in the open ocean, especially at 40 meters.

 

[David Watson]

I can't believe PADI would be this irrational...

or can I?

Can someone please post some more definitions regarding penetration?

 

[JeffG]

Can someone please post some more definitions regarding penetration?

Sorry, that would violate the TOS.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonWrasse
PADI penetration is defined as 1/3 air to get in 1/3 to exit, 1/3 in reserve. Also no more than 40 meters total travel including descent, and you must see the natural light of your entrance at all times during penetration.

If this is really what PADI is teaching then they need to revisit their training procedures, this will get someone killed in the open ocean, especially at 40 meters.

I can't believe PADI would be this irrational...

or can I?

Can someone please post some more definitions regarding penetration?

I hate to yet again be the bringer of BAD news but MoonWrasse and MHK are giving PADI way more credit than they deserve.

I just finished reviewing the course standards and the instructor outline to refresh my memory and...

The penetration limit is 130 ft total distance from the surface but there ARE NO gas planning requirements. I don't have the student text handy but there is no mention of gas planning in the instructor outline and certainly no mention of any version of the rule of thirds with the exception that it is recommended that the instructor does not violate the rule of thirds. The "rule of thirds", however, is not defined.

Determining gas limits is a requirement of the penetration dive but I see no mention as to how that should be done.

I also see that the rule of thirds is mentioned in the knowledge review with a reference to the text so, again, I don't have the text handy but it apparently says something in there...however, there is NO standards based requirement that students dive within the rule of thirds (any version of it).

This shouldn't be too surprising since, if I'm not mistaken, the requirement to dive within the rule of thirds was only recently added to the cavern course.

I would again stress the same concerns I expressed a few pages back in this thread, a couple of years ago.

 

[Hinalo]

Even if PADI's wreck diver specialty curriculum is woefully inadequate, I thought it made sense somewhere above to think of it as a basic introduction only, and not as a comprehensive penetration course.

My interest at this point, with only 30 dives and a fresh Rescue Diver cert, is to build gradually further and introduce myself to different types of diving so that I can better judge where I want to really focus in and specialize.

That's why I asked for opinions regarding competent, experienced wreck and deep specialty instructors in the San Diego area. If any of you know and can recommend any instructors or shops who are very good in these specialty areas I'd be grateful for pointers. If it's PADI fine, if something else that's fine too.

Thanks.

 

[Don Wray]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonWrasse
PADI penetration is defined as 1/3 air to get in 1/3 to exit, 1/3 in reserve. Also no more than 40 meters total travel including descent, and you must see the natural light of your entrance at all times during penetration.






I hate to yet again be the bringer of BAD news but MoonWrasse and MHK are giving PADI way more credit than they deserve.

I just finished reviewing the course standards and the instructor outline to refresh my memory and...

The penetration limit is 130 ft total distance from the surface but there ARE NO gas planning requirements. I don't have the student text handy but there is no mention of gas planning in the instructor outline and certainly no mention of any version of the rule of thirds with the exception that it is recommended that the instructor does not violate the rule of thirds. The "rule of thirds", however, is not defined.

Determining gas limits is a requirement of the penetration dive but I see no mention as to how that should be done.

I also see that the rule of thirds is mentioned in the knowledge review with a reference to the text so, again, I don't have the text handy but it apparently says something in there...however, there is NO standards based requirement that students dive within the rule of thirds (any version of it).

This shouldn't be too surprising since, if I'm not mistaken, the requirement to dive within the rule of thirds was only recently added to the cavern course.

I would again stress the same concerns I expressed a few pages back in this thread, a couple of years ago.

The text is in the wreck diving material and states:

If planning a penetration dive additional planning should include:
1. Discuss maximum linear distance of penetration based on depth, features and condition of the wreck.
2. Agree on penetration air supply limits. Remember the "Rule of Thirds"; one third in, one third out and one third in reserve.
3. Review reel and line procedures.
4. Discuss emergency procedure during penetration.

It also recommends a independent redundant air source

 

[Glycerin]

I can't believe PADI would be this irrational...

or can I?

Can someone please post some more definitions regarding penetration?

Just google penetration

 

[headhunter]

Even if PADI's wreck diver specialty curriculum is woefully inadequate, I thought it made sense somewhere above to think of it as a basic introduction only, and not as a comprehensive penetration course.

My interest at this point, with only 30 dives and a fresh Rescue Diver cert, is to build gradually further and introduce myself to different types of diving so that I can better judge where I want to really focus in and specialize.

That's why I asked for opinions regarding competent, experienced wreck and deep specialty instructors in the San Diego area. If any of you know and can recommend any instructors or shops who are very good in these specialty areas I'd be grateful for pointers. If it's PADI fine, if something else that's fine too.

Thanks.

Since you have opened this up to possibilities outside of PADI, I'll recommend talking to the folks at San Diego Underwater Adventures (http://sduadivers.com/).

While I have not actually been to the shop, I know the folks that run it by reputation and have dove with many of their customers who just rave about this place.

I'm hoping to finally drop in for a visit on the weekend of September 8th and 9th.

I understand that they offer top notch instruction that would properly prepare you for real wreck dives involving penetration, gas planning, line work, etc.

If you get a chance to go by and talk with them, come back here and let us know what your impressions are.

Christian

 

[MHK]

The text is in the wreck diving material and states:

If planning a penetration dive additional planning should include:
1. Discuss maximum linear distance of penetration based on depth, features and condition of the wreck.
2. Agree on penetration air supply limits. Remember the "Rule of Thirds"; one third in, one third out and one third in reserve.
3. Review reel and line procedures.
4. Discuss emergency procedure during penetration.

It also recommends a independent redundant air source

First off, let's start with the "Rule of Thirds" If that is in fact what they offer for open ocean wreck penetrations then someone seriously needs to talk to them. This is woefully inadequate and if followed will likely kill someone.

My other issues is that it is one thing to write a CYA mention of:

"Discussing emergency procedure; reviewing line procedures; independent air source" et. al., but it is a whole entirely different matter if they aren't included in the skill portion of the class. For example, do they train for no vis exit? Do they teach the proper propulsion techniques? What do they mean by "independent redundant air source ( are they OK with a Spare Air)? Are doubles required? Are they discussed? Did they teach the failure points? Do they teach the proper procedures to follow if there is a reg or manifold failure? What about lights, primary and back-up? What about light communication? What about team position?

It's one thing to write a few paragraphs about things that are important, but it is entirely different to be placed under stress and hold trim, position,and bouyancy. Are back-up masks required? Did anyone in any of these classes actually try to run a dive using Rule of Thirds and then exit in no vis and see if 1/3rd's was adequate? Did anyone ever consider the fault of the rule of thirds in connection with the open ocean?

There are so many critical ommissions from this progam that to call it a "wreck diving" class is disingenuos at best, and false and misleading on so many levels.

Anyone that takes a "wreck specialty" of this magnitude should be well advised that most material aspects of wreck diving or ommitted from the program so it's hardly worth taking the class.

This isn't meant as a slam on PADI inasmuch as it is a true evaluation of the critical skills that are required inside a wreck, and in the abscence of those tools someone may very well get hurt.

Regards

 

[MikeFerrara]

The text is in the wreck diving material and states:

If planning a penetration dive additional planning should include:
1. Discuss maximum linear distance of penetration based on depth, features and condition of the wreck.
2. Agree on penetration air supply limits. Remember the "Rule of Thirds"; one third in, one third out and one third in reserve.
3. Review reel and line procedures.
4. Discuss emergency procedure during penetration.

It also recommends a independent redundant air source

When I get a chance I'll dig up my copy of the text..it's been a long time since I looked at it.

I would agree with MHK.

The dive should be turned at a point where each diver has sufficient gas left to get both divers out of the wreck and to the surface.

If you use 1/3 going in and your buddy suffers a total gas loss at the point of max penetration (worst case), it will take you 2/3 to get out (you get a 1/3 and he gets 1/3)....IF you're good...You are now out of gas before you have even started your ascent.

The purpose of the rule of thirds is not just to reserve an arbitrary "third". The purpose is to have twice what you need (enough for two) to get back to the surface.

Additionally, a discussion of the "rule of thirds" isn't of much use without a discussion of gas matching. What if I have a big tank and breath alot. We are at your 1/3 but I lose all my gas. Uh, oh, now I need more than the third of your gas that you saved for me and we don't have enough to get home.