Helmet:
Wow, I'm actually posting.. I promised never but alas I have to put in my two cents worth.
Welcome to the board.
I find it interesting that people post about something they apparently have no experience with or understanding of.
I'll use a few examples:
Well I'm not to happy with PADI or their standards or the performance of many of their instructors but I have plenty of experience with all of the above so maybe I can comment on some of your points.
1) I see a lot of comments on how people should go get certified to do technical by an agency with some experience with technical diving. Does anyone actually know who designed the DSAT program? The people are the ones who are the offspring so to speak of Bill Stone's caving projects. This includes the female record holder for longest cave penetration. How much experience is required before one is to be considered experienced?
If you read through some of this thread ist's the very philosophy and standards that some of us disagree with. Refer back to some of the previouse posts talking about things like training tech students on their knees and the desire to make "tech" more mainstream.
We have and can continue to diecuss the standards directly and there's plenty to talk about.
2) PADI/DSAT acknowledges that helium is a great gas ideally. However, we do not live in an ideal world.
No it's not an ideal world. Most of us are aware of the depths that have been dived on air. Stop by and talk to Hal Watts some time. What 500ft and some change? Interesting to hear about but I'm not going to do it and I'm not going to recomment that my students do either.
I realize that we're talking about 165 and not 500 but I've seen some people at 165 that might as well been at 500 and I can do without it. And yes, I've done it.
3) Why is it a sin to make money at diving or teaching diving?
No sin at all.
There are a lot of crap PADI instructors out there and it annoys the hell out of me. However, dont throw the baby out with the bathwater. The system shouldn't be condemned simply because some of the players don't follow it as it was intended...
Now we're at the very heart of the matter aren't we? Carefully read the PADI (other have the same problem) standards and notice that some of the worst instructors you'll see are actually teaching right to the letter of the standard. BTW, a PADI educational consultant pointed that out to me while I was on the phone expressing my concern about some of the things that I was seeing in training.
Sorry but I think that an instructor who's only been diving for 6 months teaching exactly to the standards is a direct product of the system and it makes me want to through out the bathwater because it's hosing up the baby.
I challenge anyone else to improve the system.
Been trying. It isn't easy that's for sure.
How many have actually read the training standards they so happily like to comment on?
I have read and re-read them over a number of years and the longer I read them and the more I've taught and tried to reconcile them the harder it gets.
GUE is doing a good job of trying to improve the industry but they have the enviable position of not having to train people to actually dive in a competative marketplace. It's a different kind of student who seeks out a GUE course compared to an entry level certification level course. Try to teach a person to dive properly when all they want to pay is $99.
Again you hit at the heart of the matter. The industry has evolved to provide that $99 class and people are getting what they pay for. They get standards that allow a class to be completed in $99 worth of time and instructor.
I most certainly didn't get into diving to make money. Don't you know how to make a million dollars in the diving industry? Start with 2 million isn't it?
Actually I did that too. Well it was a little less but I understand the concept very well.
It amazes me how many people post here about how they think instruction should be better but then are also seeking out deals on their gear or parts kits or servicing.
We could write a book on this aspect and in fact I just might. A diver is supposed to let the shop and the manufacturer force them into paying for all that service to help subsidize instruction. Is that what you're saying?
We should be willing to spend more for equipment and allow the manufacturers and shops to control the cost, service and parts availability all in the interest of subsidizing training because the poor idiot doesn't charge enough?
Good training is worth money and a good instructor should get paid. If they don't value their skills and time why should any one else. The industry needs to stop giving it away in the interest of selling equipment.
The industry had better wake up. If they want to make money teaching they had better charge more for it.
How is instruction supposed to get better when people are simply not willing to pay for the time it takes? Gear sales subsidize training.
I agree (see above) and IMO, it's blatantly wrong. It's great for the manufacturers and even some agencies but it's not working out so well for the shops, instructors or divers.
Buy online and there is even less money to pay for training.
Charge the student, not me! I don't need any more training (at least not from any dive shop that I know of). I will not finance some one elses habit! That's called a donation and there's better causes to donate too.
I teach diving because I fell in love with the sport and wanted to share my passion with others. I invested a lot of time and money to get to the level where I can do that. I work hard to continually improve and to provide the best services I can as an instructor. However, I've never encountered any other profession where people want so much service and are so cheap about what they are willing to pay for it. "I want you to teach me how to use this life support equipment safely and effectively but can I have a discount?"
I know exactly what you're talking about. I teach. I charge. If some one doesn't want to pay what I charge they can go get a $99 class and I'll give them the phone number. Again though, if you won't charge the student what you think your class is worth, don't try to convince me that I should make up the difference some how.
Do people start up discussion threads about their optometry discussing how eye health could be better and cheaper if done ourselves and that really we all should just start servicing our own eyes and skipping visits to the optometrist in exchange for making our own glasses at home and doing our own eye tests annually?
Poor analogy. I have a compressor and I'm the only blender in this part of the state. I don't even know how many tanks and regs I have but it's a bunch. Why exactly should I pay some one else to swap out a few o-rings? because the manufacturer won't sell me parts if I don't own a dive shop? Maybe I'll just buy my regs from a manufacturer who will!
(I know, run on sentance but aren't most rants?) Trust me.. I've had some of the worst diving instruction I can imagine so I don't blame people for their frustration but asking for a discount is not the way to improve things.
Well I've had some pretty lousy instruction. I've even posted here about when my wife and her buddy were abandon in the mud in zero vis by her OW instructor. An instructor who lost a student the following sumer. I've also seen a few diver get hurt who trusted their instructor. I've also found some good instructors. They weren't in a dive shop though. After spending a few years in the business I now know how it all works and I find it offensive that a pro would suggest that divers are getting lousy instruction because I repair my own equipment. You should talk to the agency that wrote the standards and allows it to go on. They own it. I don't! Talk to your peers in the business who don't value their time enough to charge for their efforts. Talk to the agency who knows what kind of classes are being taught and see if you can't get them to raise the bar a bit.
Well.. I would be curious to see what this rant results in. I"m hungry now so I'll leave it at that to go make some dinner and to service my reg. Does anyone know where I can get some APEKS parts kits? I have to get my rig ready for my 150 foot solo deep air night current dive that I'm planning. Don't worry everyone.. I've invented a new sidebackponymountedindependentredundantmultigasswitchingdoingitmyway scubasystem that is bound to keep me alive just as soon as I've finished with a few minor modications that will improve things beyond belief. Patent pending.
Apply for all the sarcasm you wish. I still won't send you any money to cover you for the class that you just lost money on.
For those reg parts you're needing though...I'd recommend taking a look at the abyss regulators. Abyss will be happy to provide you with repair manuals and parts kits as well as any training you may feel that you need.
Stay away from that scubapro and aqualung stuff though. They put shops in a position where they need to sell huge volumes to keep their dealership. This teps them to give away classes to sell equipment. They also try to deny you the ability to service your own equipment if you choose to in order to further finance those lousy excusses for classes.
Thanks for your thoughts and again, welcome to the board.
Mike
