PADI TecRec
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I guess I still don't see how it's the projects fault. Is it because they didn't have an effective gard posted?
Because, they associated themselves with some one who would do such a thing?
I heard the diver who died was a pretty smart guy wouldn't you think he'd know better and if he didn't that people would blame him?
I really don't know but from everything I've heard the guy just went and did something really stupid and it looks like those that don't like Stone blame him instead of the diver.
And the WKPP diver who dies is no relection on the WKPP because he did it in another county or something?
If the guy did a sneak dive in Wakulla, would we then conclude that the WKPP was at fault?
Because, they associated themselves with some one who would do such a thing?
I heard the diver who died was a pretty smart guy wouldn't you think he'd know better and if he didn't that people would blame him?
I really don't know but from everything I've heard the guy just went and did something really stupid and it looks like those that don't like Stone blame him instead of the diver.
And the WKPP diver who dies is no relection on the WKPP because he did it in another county or something?
If the guy did a sneak dive in Wakulla, would we then conclude that the WKPP was at fault?
MHK has a good point, so I'll respond to your questions and leave it at that. Stone had the permit to Wakulla and as such was responsible for the diving that went on there. Kendall dove with Stone's knowledge and permission, as did the NatGeo photographer that toxed. As such both incidents were under Stone's direct control.
If Kendall did a sneak dive then yes, I wouldn't blame it on Stone. If one of Stone's team dove somewhere else, not part of the Wakulla2 project and died, then I wouldn't blame Stone. But these accidents were part of the project and done with Stone and the project's full permission.
Roak
If Kendall did a sneak dive then yes, I wouldn't blame it on Stone. If one of Stone's team dove somewhere else, not part of the Wakulla2 project and died, then I wouldn't blame Stone. But these accidents were part of the project and done with Stone and the project's full permission.
Roak
Mike,
I must thank you for your thoughtful reply and I agree with DeepSCUBA that we seem to have much more to agree on than disagree. I definately agree with your point that gear should not subsidize training (ideally) and in fact the managers where I work have made that a big priority at the LDS but it's not going to happy overnight. I live in an area where there are at least a dozen LDS close by. If one started to charge what a course actually costs they would lose clients, simply as that.
Definately someone like yourself should not be subsidizing the training of other people nor paying to have a few orings swapped out. I service gear now and after two years of the old service tech telling me how I needed training and bench time before touching a reg I now know how simple most are as long as you have the right tools and take your time. I dont think that the average joe is going to find it cost effective to let their warranty lapse and to buy a few hundred dollars of general and specialty tools and a sonic cleaner and parts kits and the repair books from Vance Harlow and Pete Wolfinger and a magnahelic etc etc.. It would take a number of servicings over several years I'm sure to actually break even and that's not even factoring in what your time might be worth. I guess for many the keys is that they feel that it's possible to do a better job than their LDS and for the Mikes of the world I'm sure that is true but for the average joe I do feel some concern. I see some of the questions being asked and I certainly wouldn't want that person servicing MY regs.
As for PADI not doing anything about lousy instruction. I have had experiences where they do. The key is that someone has to let them know about specific events and once enough has been shown to be problematic about an instructor that person will be given the boot. On of my former instructors was given the boot as was his entire dive centre. On of my friend's former intructors was given the boot as a direct result of a letter he wrote to PADI. Griping online about bad instructors is fun and everyone has their story but only if you let PADI in on it formally can they do anything about it. Of course, the bad instructors don't let their students know about the quality assurance programs do they?
As for the tech program. I'm not sure that DSAT is trying to MAKE tech more mainstream or if they have recognized a natural growth of technical diving and have a desire to get involved in the training. As for training people on their knees, I can't say that PADI or DSAT advocates one way or another. However, it is done at the recreational levels. I don't recall ever reading that to be a standard. I would not attempt to teach open water students except on their knees. Yes, that is a control. Yes, it's to make the instructor's life easier. Most importantly, it's to make the student safer. Also, it's to break a skill down to allow the student to concentrate on one thing at a time. May would be able to accomplish everything in the hovering trim position and I always talk about this with the students. However, the standard does not require it because we have to start with baby steps. If I saw an open water student practicing skills in the pool or demonstrating them to me while hovering, I certainly would not stop it as long as I felt comfortable that this particular student actually was competent at controlling their buoyancy. As for anything above Open water.. I tend to teach to do things in the hovering trim position. When our LDS taught tecdeep it was the same. Starting and practicing from the knees is always so that the student can master the skill first.. then build on that. Educationally, this is sound. I'm sure, however, that many instructors do not help their students past the knees and end up with people who are habitually dropping their knees from the trim position or never end up achieving it.
One last comment on the 6months and poof you are an instructor thing. Some people will make lousy instructors no matter how long they have been diving or how much training you give them. I'm sure that there are lousy accountants out there who have done way more training and practice than some really good accountants. How much is enough? I became an instructor after about a year and a half and about 130 or so dives. I feel that some of my early instruction was less than at the bar. Still, I do feel that I"m quite a good instructor because I care and take the time to work on any shortcomings. I don't know that more dives in the requirments is going to help. I've seen people with hundreds of dives diving overweighted and in a sloppy trim position. More dives will simply perpetuate their bad habits no? Ever heard of a band that grabs up musicians to fill spots before they are any good so that they can mold that players playing to their own sound? Maybe there is some merit in getting potential instructors under the care of a course director as soon as possible before bad habits are cemented in stone. Just thinking out loud here.
By the way, the end of my last message wasn't intended to be sarcastic... just a way of letting you know that I do it too. I service my own regs at work. I have colleagues who make their own dive lights because they are sick of paying the manufacturers. I wanted to end on a light note after a lengthy rant basically.
Thanks again for the thoughtful response. Hopefully we'll live to see the day that the industry doesn't make us all quite so jaded. I still love the sport.
I must thank you for your thoughtful reply and I agree with DeepSCUBA that we seem to have much more to agree on than disagree. I definately agree with your point that gear should not subsidize training (ideally) and in fact the managers where I work have made that a big priority at the LDS but it's not going to happy overnight. I live in an area where there are at least a dozen LDS close by. If one started to charge what a course actually costs they would lose clients, simply as that.
Definately someone like yourself should not be subsidizing the training of other people nor paying to have a few orings swapped out. I service gear now and after two years of the old service tech telling me how I needed training and bench time before touching a reg I now know how simple most are as long as you have the right tools and take your time. I dont think that the average joe is going to find it cost effective to let their warranty lapse and to buy a few hundred dollars of general and specialty tools and a sonic cleaner and parts kits and the repair books from Vance Harlow and Pete Wolfinger and a magnahelic etc etc.. It would take a number of servicings over several years I'm sure to actually break even and that's not even factoring in what your time might be worth. I guess for many the keys is that they feel that it's possible to do a better job than their LDS and for the Mikes of the world I'm sure that is true but for the average joe I do feel some concern. I see some of the questions being asked and I certainly wouldn't want that person servicing MY regs.
As for PADI not doing anything about lousy instruction. I have had experiences where they do. The key is that someone has to let them know about specific events and once enough has been shown to be problematic about an instructor that person will be given the boot. On of my former instructors was given the boot as was his entire dive centre. On of my friend's former intructors was given the boot as a direct result of a letter he wrote to PADI. Griping online about bad instructors is fun and everyone has their story but only if you let PADI in on it formally can they do anything about it. Of course, the bad instructors don't let their students know about the quality assurance programs do they?
As for the tech program. I'm not sure that DSAT is trying to MAKE tech more mainstream or if they have recognized a natural growth of technical diving and have a desire to get involved in the training. As for training people on their knees, I can't say that PADI or DSAT advocates one way or another. However, it is done at the recreational levels. I don't recall ever reading that to be a standard. I would not attempt to teach open water students except on their knees. Yes, that is a control. Yes, it's to make the instructor's life easier. Most importantly, it's to make the student safer. Also, it's to break a skill down to allow the student to concentrate on one thing at a time. May would be able to accomplish everything in the hovering trim position and I always talk about this with the students. However, the standard does not require it because we have to start with baby steps. If I saw an open water student practicing skills in the pool or demonstrating them to me while hovering, I certainly would not stop it as long as I felt comfortable that this particular student actually was competent at controlling their buoyancy. As for anything above Open water.. I tend to teach to do things in the hovering trim position. When our LDS taught tecdeep it was the same. Starting and practicing from the knees is always so that the student can master the skill first.. then build on that. Educationally, this is sound. I'm sure, however, that many instructors do not help their students past the knees and end up with people who are habitually dropping their knees from the trim position or never end up achieving it.
One last comment on the 6months and poof you are an instructor thing. Some people will make lousy instructors no matter how long they have been diving or how much training you give them. I'm sure that there are lousy accountants out there who have done way more training and practice than some really good accountants. How much is enough? I became an instructor after about a year and a half and about 130 or so dives. I feel that some of my early instruction was less than at the bar. Still, I do feel that I"m quite a good instructor because I care and take the time to work on any shortcomings. I don't know that more dives in the requirments is going to help. I've seen people with hundreds of dives diving overweighted and in a sloppy trim position. More dives will simply perpetuate their bad habits no? Ever heard of a band that grabs up musicians to fill spots before they are any good so that they can mold that players playing to their own sound? Maybe there is some merit in getting potential instructors under the care of a course director as soon as possible before bad habits are cemented in stone. Just thinking out loud here.
By the way, the end of my last message wasn't intended to be sarcastic... just a way of letting you know that I do it too. I service my own regs at work. I have colleagues who make their own dive lights because they are sick of paying the manufacturers. I wanted to end on a light note after a lengthy rant basically.
Thanks again for the thoughtful response. Hopefully we'll live to see the day that the industry doesn't make us all quite so jaded. I still love the sport.
Thanks Roak,
I had never heard it said that Kendall was diving with Ston'e knowledge and permission.
I've heard different but who knows?
I had never heard it said that Kendall was diving with Ston'e knowledge and permission.
I've heard different but who knows?
MHK
Guest
MikeFerrara:
Mike as I noted I'd really prefer we avoid branching this thread off into this direction since it's water under the bridge and counter-productive. Just out of curiousity, have you ever been to Wakulla or seen the pictures on WKPP.org??
The point of course being is that the diving entrance area is VERY small, and unless someone is blind they would see a diver getting into the water, especially if they had a Cis Lunar on their back. No Surface Manager in their right mind on the WKPP would allow a diver into the water solo diving a CCR. Certainly Stone isn't fully to blame and Dr. Kendall is responsible but one of the intangibles that sets the WKPP so far apart from the rest is that not only wouldn't a surface manager allow you into the water at the WKPP without a buddy, no one on the team would even think of doing it.. The tone and the leadership has long been established on Stone's projects and solo diving is part of the culture and make up of the team. Accordingly, if you are going to allow that under your watch then if something goes wrong, remember where the buck stops..
Again, let's move on from this topic it's been beaten to death and at this point no one will change anyone else's mind as they are all made up..
Regards
MHK,
Thanks for the further explaination and I don't disagree. I wan't trying to argue it's just that I never really heard much detail about what happened.
Helmet,
I hope you hang around. Check out the instructor forum also. We have some good conversations. It's hard for a shop to buck the system because they rely on the very people they need to buck against.
Thanks for the further explaination and I don't disagree. I wan't trying to argue it's just that I never really heard much detail about what happened.
Helmet,
I hope you hang around. Check out the instructor forum also. We have some good conversations. It's hard for a shop to buck the system because they rely on the very people they need to buck against.
wow.. quite the turn of events just in the time it took to post my last one there!
I have a thought.. isn't it up to each diver to dive safe and sound and to use the proper equipment and techniques to plan and carry out the plan?
Stone didn't design the DSAT program.. former members of his team had input. Or so I understand.
I have a thought.. isn't it up to each diver to dive safe and sound and to use the proper equipment and techniques to plan and carry out the plan?
Stone didn't design the DSAT program.. former members of his team had input. Or so I understand.
Aside from Karl Shreevs I don't think that I ever heard who was in on it. If it's a female and she holds a cave diving record and she worked with Stone my guess would be JH but it's just a guess.
I agree that every one is responsible for their choices. However, when a policy or procedure leads to a problem the persons who put the procedures in place should get a share of the credit.
I agree that every one is responsible for their choices. However, when a policy or procedure leads to a problem the persons who put the procedures in place should get a share of the credit.
And now back to out regularly scheduled argument. Sorry about the derail.
Roak
Roak
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