PADI TecRec

[MHK]

What I got VERY unhappy about in my rescue class was that PADI has completely discounted the possibility of a recreational diver taking a tox hit. That's a very nice belief, but its very untrue. It only takes ONE mistake mixing up a tank of "recreational" Nitrox to get nailed.

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One of my frustrations with the information that is being offered in various Rescue classes and Nitrox classes is that it's either simply lacking or when offered is incorrect. I make a habit out of asking everyone of my students in the opening night lecture what they have been taught respecting the rescue of a toxing diver. More often then not those that have taken Nitrox classes, but not yet taken the Rescus class, offer that they have been told to "get the diver to the surface ASAP", but they never ever practiced any rescue skills in their Nitrox class. So they give out the wrong procedure, but normally don't even demonstrate the skill in the class. That is my biggest problem with those that defend Nitrox training without the need to even get in the water. Some agencies, like PADI, require 2 dives atleast, but more often then not when I ask a student what skills they did during those 2 dives they tell me that the dives were really just escorted dives with no skills done. That sorta begs the question why "require" dives without any skills?

Those that have taken a Rescue class, rarely, if ever, know the difference between the rescue procedure of an unconscious diver -v- the rescue procedure for a toxing diver, nor do they know the difference between the signs and symptoms of an unconscious diver -v- a toxing diver.

It's a shame that this isn't taken more seriously during training, and it's also a shame that what little chance a diver that is convulsing underwater has, is usually mitigated because of lack of knowledge or ability of the buddy..

Regards

 

[Genesis]

i hope my buddy will react as you will Genesis if something were to happen to me. We discuss the subjct thouroughly togethar but wil never know until the siutation arises. But yes you are correst. You MUST take into account the fact that the diver may have taken an o2 hit. otherwise you will kill him anyway on the ascent. At least you should have a safe breathing gas in his mouth. VERY good points...I have also been trying to advocate the use of an analyzer even for recreational mixes such as air. Who knows what the dive shop could have filled in the tank you asked for air in? I think recreational training should start advocating this also regardless of the breathing gas.

EVERY tank I dive has MY OWN contents tag on it, and it only gets there (its a wide piece of blue painters tape written on with a sharpie) by MY personal analysis and MY hand. I record the FO2, MOD and fill pressure in big print, and if I filled it at home the start and ending compressor hours, date and my initials for each fill. I also have a filling protocol that physically separates the O2 bottles from the compressor, so I must physically move them from one place to another, and I tag off the valves once the O2 is in, so I know that a tank sitting at the compressor has O2 in it but has not yet been topped. All this is overkill if you're only doing one tank at a time, but I am often doing five or six, where a mistake is pretty easy to make if you don't have a damn-foolproof protocol worked out. Since mistakes can kill someone underwater.....

If that tag is missing, the tank is not diveable. I've either removed it or someone filled the tank and I haven't checked it yet. I also put a DIN plug (a solid SS one) in my tank valves when the tank is full, and remove it once the tank has been dove, so I have both a belt AND suspenders. No plug, the label is not trusted until verified. I don't trust the dive shop's analyzer unless I see them calibrate it on both air AND 100% O2 - what if the cell is old and cal's just fine on 21% but won't read right on 32 or 36 - or 50? Mine is checked on 100% O2 frequently, since I have a nice supply bottle to do it with in my garage. Without calibrating on a known enriched gas with at least as much O2 as you wish to measure for you have no idea if the cell can produce enough output to read at the desired percentage.

Signing a gas log is not good enough. You need to know the analyzer is working correctly. The local shops here do not verify the calibration in front of you (they do either analyze the tank in front of you or have you do it, and sign the log) nor do they calibrate on dry air. The latter IS a cause of false readings - not a large error, but an error nonetheless. Around here in Florida you can have an error of 0.3-0.4% due to humidity in the ambient air .vs. that in the tank if you calibrate against the atmosphere.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It is also true that ALL of the agencies, except for GUE, demand such a card before you can enroll in ANY tech class (Deco procedures, etc) GUE, however, rolls their "Rescue" into all their classes.

Rescue is NOT a requirement for IANTD technical courses or NACD cave training.

I don't think that TDI or the NSS-CDS require it either but I'm not sure.

 

[Genesis]

Rescue is NOT a requirement for IANTD technical courses or NACD cave training.

I don't think that TDI or the NSS-CDS require it either but I'm not sure.

Hmmm... was told otherwise by a few folks - bad infomration? Gee, that'd be a surprise! NOT!

 

[MikeFerrara]

IANTD standards and procedures are on their web site at IANTD.com

 

[Mako Mark]

it seem s that DSAT is the only one that anyone here KNOWS requires any rescue training limited as the PADI Rescue course in the context of tec diving.

Warts and all some training in how a diver should react in rescue situations has to be an advantage to the tec diving student.

The PADI Rescue course was written in 1989. It has been revised and added to, but essentially it is unchanged since then, six years before PADI had their own Nitrox course, so of course it doesnt aproach the topic of oxygen toxicity and the ensuing convulsions. Shoud it?? now, yes, then , NO.

Personally, I dont believe that the rescue course is the pinnacle of recreational diver ratings, and as I point out to my open water students and instructor candidates, Rescue diver training should be the goal of anyone that wants to dive without professional supervision. The PADI open water course is so stripped down and streamlined now that it is just one step to becoming a diver. I like to describe it as a "learners permit." The rescue course doesnt turn you into a Coast guard rescue swimmer, but it should open your eyes to the complexities of the situations that can arise. It should also show you how to deal with reasonably predictable situations that could occur in recreational diving.

I guess the debate, genisis is: Is a tox hit a "reasonably predictable situation that could occur in recreational diving"

We agree with you wholeheartedly regarding your example and your solution, but should it be included in that course or some other? that is another question.

 

[MHK]

I guess the debate, genisis is: Is a tox hit a "reasonably predictable situation that could occur in recreational diving"

We agree with you wholeheartedly regarding your example and your solution, but should it be included in that course or some other? that is another question.

Mark,

My feeling is that they "require" 2 dives for the class, so why not make those 2 dives valuable or productive? Unless any skills are done in those 2 dives then isn't the "requirement" just window dressing?

What I can't for the life of me figure out is why wouldn't a student want to learn this skill and why wouldn't a instructor want to teach it?? It seems to me that they hammer home in the class that the biggest danger of diving Nitrox is the possibility of an Ox Tox hit, so why not extend the thought and show them how to rescue someone should it happen??

I guess it boils down to an intangible ideological philosophy of asking as little as possible, as opposed to challenging your students. And that is why you see many of us leary about PADI's entrance into the technical market because in the tech ranges you shouldn't be asking as little as possible, you should be demanding as much as possible..

Regards

 

[Snowbear]

Do agencies other than GUE cover rescue of a convulsing diver during any of their tech classes?

Just an aside - the instructor in my PADI rescue class covered this. As for replacing the reg - the way he put it was something like, "PADI says I have to tell you don't take the time to replace the reg, but here's what I'm going teach you..." BTW, this instructor was very anti-DIR at the time.

 

[Mako Mark]

Mark,

My feeling is that they "require" 2 dives for the class, so why not make those 2 dives valuable or productive? Unless any skills are done in those 2 dives then isn't the "requirement" just window dressing?
Regards

I think we are talking about two different courses, I was talking about the rescue course, but yes the Nitrox course has two required dives, I guess PADI feels that to the recreational diver there are no underwater skills that are specific to nitrox, and that the most important skills are actually analysis and dive planning, which I agree with. Experiencing diving with the gas is important too, and allows the instructor the behavior of the student and their attitude towards planning and executing a real dive.

In the PADI Nitrox course there is discussion regarding how to deal with accidents involving Nitrox divers. In the new nitrox course just released, they are broadening the gap even more between the recreational nitrox user and the tec diving use of the gas.

In TDI (a technical diving agency,) the 2 dives are not required at all. How do all the TDI instructors reading this thread teach basic nitrox divers how to rescue a diver with an O2 toxicity hit??

I think the most important thing to teach is the scope and limitations of the diver and their present level of training. If we all stayed within those limits, there would be far few rescues needed.

 

[Mako Mark]

MHK provoked me to search for DSAT's mission statement and I learned a lot about downs syndrome and defense satelites.

However I am sure that it cannot be to promots as many people in the world to participate in the activity as the padi mossion is.

here is the closest thing I could find on the PADI website:

Technical diving isn't for everyone but if this type of diving appeals to you and you're willing to accept the risks, responsibilities and obligations, you'll find it one of the most rewarding dive experiences you'll ever have.