PADI TecRec

[Mako Mark]

something interesting that has been touched on in this thread is the profitability issue, a couple of people have commented about PADI and DSAT just tryng to sell more or make the extra buck.

To my knowlege, PADI and DSAT are not expecting to make a profit on the tec rec programs, they see it as such a small market that they will probably make a loss or barely break even. So profit is not their motivation. If they were looking to turn a profit, they would focus entirely on their kids programs and expanding the granny market because they are about a billion times bigger than tec.

One other thing that crossed my mind is the kneeling issue, way back when I learned tec diving, I sure as hell jumped in the pool and knelt to practice staging bottles, then hovering with multiple tanks and doubles I wasnt used to, figuring out buoy launches in 30' of water on the house reef, learning the drysuit stuff in a shallow cenote etc etc.

So how are students supposed to LEARN?

either you have to teach them in an environment where they cant get hurt, or filter out those you do not expect to succeed.

If you filter out all students that do not naturally possess the inherent skills and techniques before they start the course, why are they taking a course, they already have the skills and techniques.

I believe diving is a motor skill that needs to be learned and practiced. We were all beginners once, and we probably practiced under controlled conditions before we did under realistic or more challenging conditions.

The photos of someone mishandling a stage bottle remind me of the photos of Nicole Kidman without makeup, or Tom Cruz with his fly open, that appear in the tabloids.

 

[DS1]

http://www.dive.at/padi_kurse/images_padi_kurse/TEC2.JPG

I dont know but i would be scared at 200ft and having a guy like that coming towards you "What a mess"

 

[MikeFerrara]

One other thing that crossed my mind is the kneeling issue, way back when I learned tec diving, I sure as hell jumped in the pool and knelt to practice staging bottles, then hovering with multiple tanks and doubles I wasnt used to, figuring out buoy launches in 30' of water on the house reef, learning the drysuit stuff in a shallow cenote etc etc.

So how are students supposed to LEARN?

either you have to teach them in an environment where they cant get hurt, or filter out those you do not expect to succeed.

If you filter out all students that do not naturally possess the inherent skills and techniques before they start the course, why are they taking a course, they already have the skills and techniques.

I believe diving is a motor skill that needs to be learned and practiced. We were all beginners once, and we probably practiced under controlled conditions before we did under realistic or more challenging conditions.

The photos of someone mishandling a stage bottle remind me of the photos of Nicole Kidman without makeup, or Tom Cruz with his fly open, that appear in the tabloids.

A diver in a tech class shouldn't be a beginner. Many of us beleive the time to learn basic technique and learn to do things off the bottom is OW class. certainly way before a tech class.

Some of us don't even put OW students on their knees.

IMO, PADI understands the underwater tourism buisness very well but... then there's diving.

 

[DS1]

People getting into tech diving should already have over 100 dives and should be able to hover in water and do various skills

 

[J1M1]

People getting into tech diving should already have over 100 dives and should be able to hover in water and do various skills

very true

 

[MHK]

One other thing that crossed my mind is the kneeling issue, way back when I learned tec diving, I sure as hell jumped in the pool and knelt to practice staging bottles, then hovering with multiple tanks and doubles I wasnt used to, figuring out buoy launches in 30' of water on the house reef, learning the drysuit stuff in a shallow cenote etc etc.

So how are students supposed to LEARN?

either you have to teach them in an environment where they cant get hurt, or filter out those you do not expect to succeed.

Mark,

I think you just touched the nerve that many of us have problems with. In short, the PADI teaching paradigm is based on the concept that in order for one to learn, they need to crawl first and then walk later. We disagree with that on many levels, but we are especially critical of it in the technical realm. While I'm not a big fan of using minimum number of dives as a entrance requirement, I acknowledge that it's a start. And that applies to all agencies.. That being said, in the PADI Deep air class you are essentially taking a student with a 100 dives minumim, and are going to use a 9 dive class to "certify" him to dive more deeply that most of us consider safe on air, and as you noted earlier in this thread, a diver can't overcome narcosis and/or C02 retention and therefore needs to be in tune with himself and his gear should a problem arise. Therefore, if they have a 100 dives under their belt and can't stay off of their knees to do a simple skill like stage bottle removal and replace, then in all candor they aren't skilled enough to be diving in the 165' range, especially when you consider that by PADI's own admission they are doing so on a gas that is less then optimal at that depth. It's those kind of intangibles that rather then raising the bar to make divers try harder and practice more, they choose to lower the bar so they can "crawl" over it. Furthermore, the notion that you would teach two seperate ways to remove your stage bottles, one if you are on your knees and the second if you aren't speaks to a training philosophy that many of us just scratch our heads at in disbelief.

We break our training down into 3 phases, Fundamental, Critical and Experience.

In the Fundamental phase, we keep the students in 20' and teach them and let them practice "fundamental" skills, such as stage bottle removal and replace. There is no godly reason in the world that a diver with 100 minimum under their belt, in 20', preparing to dive to 165' on air should have to learn how to "crawl" on their knees for this. Not at this level, and that is what PADI simply doesn't get..

In the Critical skill phase, once again at 20' we multi-task the students with multiple problems like mask removal, valve failures, OOA's, toxing diver etc.... Once, and only after, we are comfortable that a student can handle multiple problem do we take them on phase 3 dives.

The Experience phase dives, we allow the students to experience the diving that we have trained them to be in absent any instructor created problems..

Rule #2 in our classes is that all students must maintain nuetral buoyancy at ALL times, especially during the skills. If any student of ours ever went to his knees to do a skill we would not pass that student. The fundamental teaching principle of the Law of Primacy is so grossly violated under the PADI "crawl" before you can walk approach, which is why you see many of us upset at that paradigm.

Hopefully you have a better understadning of our concerns as PADI attempts to move into the technical area, and why many of use believe firmly that PADI needs to do a better job.

Regards

 

[Spectre]

One other thing that crossed my mind is the kneeling issue, way back when I learned tec diving, I sure as hell jumped in the pool and knelt to practice staging bottles, then hovering with multiple tanks and doubles I wasnt used to, figuring out buoy launches in 30' of water on the house reef, learning the drysuit stuff in a shallow cenote etc etc.

The fundamental issue here is that courses are beginning to be catered to those that are not ready to be moving forward. Do sign up children for soccer lessons before they know how to run? They have to know how to run before they can move on into activities where running is a basic required skill.

For tech diving, bouyancy control is akin to running. There was a discussion recently [TDS I believe] where it was discussed if you shoot a bag before you switch gas, or switch gas before you shoot a bag. The rationale for shooting first, switching after, is "in case you can't hold a stop while shooting a bag". I see that as the general rule of diving with a MOD. If you don't have the bouyancy control to stay above a MOD, you don't belong diving a gas that has a MOD above the bottom. If you can't hold a stop while shooting a bag, what other situations might you not be able to hold a stop in?

 

[J1M1]

If you can't hold a stop while shooting a bag, what other situations might you not be able to hold a stop in?

yes, like the O2 stop where the O2 exposure goes through the roof. someone could get hurt real bad

 

[Spectre]

yes, like the O2 stop where the O2 exposure goes through the roof. someone could get hurt real bad

Yes... A descent to 25 feet on 100% is definately a bit less forgiving then a descent to 75 feet on 50%.

 

[MikeFerrara]

And how often do we shoot a bag at 20 feet?