PADI OW Cert.- Depth of 4 OW dives

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Staying calm and using proper procedures for ascent are essential.

40 feet or 60 feet are not as important as keeping your cool.

Have fun!
 
i cant see why anyone would certify someone to dive to a depth they've never been anywhere near.

It's a judgement call. I prefer not to sacrifice bottom time, which is very precious in the OW course, in order to stare blindly at the 18m depth recommendation. In my estimation giving them the maximum amount of time under water is more important. You learn diving by diving and you can do that best by giving them more time (= more experience) to actually dive.

I understand that you disagree and some students disagree too. For students who really *must*, for thier own feeling of accomplishment, touch all of the "boundaries" I'll happily make sure they do it. I don't think it's the best approach but that's how some people learn best (and clearly you're one of those) so I'm happy enough to accomodate them on request.

As for being "anywhere near" the boundary, the difference between 10 or 12 and 18 metres in terms of actual diving is purely in one's head. I can't think of a single difference in the actual process of diving that makes it worth sacrificing bottom time to do this.

R..
 
I've seen a few instructors in Thailand that seemed to favor the approach of 'take 'em down to 18m and swim 'em around at pace'to burn off their air, so I can be back in time for Happy Hour'.

Seriously though, the benefit of gaining some experience at the deeper end of the course maximum is that the students have the opportunity to gain experience with the following:

1) Total ascent time from depth to surface (useful when gauging CESA etc)
2) Buoyancy characteristics as depth/pressure varies (wetsuit compression etc)
3) Impact of depth on their air consumption
4) Experience of how depth impacts upon NDL (especially over multiple dives)
5) BCD/buoyancy control over a wider depth range.

Yes, students learn all of this in theory, but they wouldn't get to appreciate the full scope of these issues if their dives were limited to shallower depths.
 
Andy, the opposite is also true. The biggest swings in buoyancy are in the first 10 metres so one could also argue that points 3 and 5 are best trained in the depth band where the differences are most pronounced and therefore the skill needed to maintain their buoyancy is the most taxed.

point 1: total ascent time, is something that I appoach as a matter of dive planning and in our local environment we're not usually making vertical ascents from depth. Nevertheless it's something to think about.

point 4: meh. reaching. I don't think you need to actually dive to 40 metres to realize that your NDL is shorter at that depth. Seeing it on a computer display may help some students to remember it better but it would only be worth sacrificing bottom time to emphasize this point if I thought a student didn't have good enough awareness of their instruments. Normally I don't see that by the time we're doing check-out dives.

point 3 is good. I can't argue with that. Most students need to gain a feeling for their air consumption over time and experience and it's worth giving this one some thought. On the other hand, I *do* do a gas calculation with them after their OW day 1 once they've gathered some data to work with... it's good to actually verify this in a dive, though, so they can see that it really does work.

Since a couple of years I've been offering my OW students 6 dives instead of 4 whereby the other 2 dives (dive 3 on both days) is just an "experience" dive and not a "checkout" dive. The shop also offers them (and pushes them) to join up on a guided dive day 2 weeks after their course is finished whereby the instructor that gave OW is required to run the guided dive. These are all opportunities I could use to get them down to 18 metres so I suppose I'll give it a go and see if it acutally delivers any additional benefit to them over the raw bottom-time.

R..
 
DevonDiver...you've highlighted undeniably very important points...this is something that should be part and parcel of the certification process. I just think it's too much too soon for me.

Bottom-line for me is that I feel that the PADI program for OW certification is too condensed and I don't feel confident that I'll be able take all of it onboard in the time given. Sure, maybe I'll satisfy the certification criteria, but I personally feel that I would want more dives (under instruction), including lots of repetition, before I dive to a depth that may, potentially, induce stress brought on by lack of confidence i.e. walk before you try to run.

I've been reading these boards extensively and from what I understand, in the past, the course was quite a bit longer than it is now. When learning anything, IMHO, you have to allow time for students to absorb and assimilate the information that is being imparted...I just don't think it's something that can be rushed. Potentially, I could be diving to 60' within 4 days of first donning a mask and fins (I have snorkeled before, but that's not a PADI pre-requisite...if you get my drift) . I don't think that's long enough....I could be wrong, maybe I'm over-thinking it and I'll surprise myself

Diver0001 I like your idea of more dives and follow up dives...that what I aiming for.

To all of you (experienced divers), thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, I really appreciate it. It seems, from what I've read here over the last week or so, that the diving community is comprised of a good number of very, very nice (and intelligent) people. I hope to become part of this special community one day soon.
 
Bottom-line for me is that I feel that the PADI program for OW certification is too condensed and I don't feel confident that I'll be able take all of it onboard in the time given. Sure, maybe I'll satisfy the certification criteria, but I personally feel that I would want more dives (under instruction), including lots of repetition, before I dive to a depth that may, potentially, induce stress brought on by lack of confidence i.e. walk before you try to run.

You make a good point but I'd like to just touch on this a bit.

Diving is really very easy for most people to learn. Becoming *good* at diving, however, takes time. What you read on the internet is often the result of people behind a keyboard heavily over-thinking things and debating in splitting hairs. A very few really do believe that diving is difficult and somehow mysterious but 99 times out of a 100 the ones who try to convince you that diving is difficult and mysterious are motivated by their own need to project a certain internet "image" of themselves and it's usually not based on anything remotely like reality.

Step 1, therefore, is (this is going to sound like swearing in the church but oh well....) just simply forget everything you read online and go take an intro dive. Relax your mind, relax your body and experience for yourself that the basics of swimming around and breathing under water are really very natural.

After that, you'll be able to approach the course with a little less apprehension about what you read online and maybe a little more knowledge of how you *personally* respond to the experience. That's your best starting point.

Part 2 of this, is what you pointed out.... the course the way it's usually given is short. It really is intended to accomplish two main things: delivery of certain knowledge, delivery of certain skills, and a small amount of practice applying the skills. Most of the practice you get with skills, you will get after the course is over. The reasons for doing this are multiple and complex but suffice it to say that this is how it is. The course simply isn't designed to give you a lot of "experience" and that's what you've pointed out as a problem above.

Nevertheless, the system is also very flexible. *IF* you want a course that's longer and gives you more experience, then it's usually very easy to find an instructor who will do that for you. Yes, it will cost more, but if you approach a shop for "private" instruction then you can get the course tailored to your exact needs. For example, normally the course consists of 5 sessions in a swimming pool and 4 dives in open-water. Last year I did a course with someone who wanted intensive instruction (for reasons that are irrelevant to this discussion) and I did 20 pool sessions and 20 open water dives with her before she got certified. So what I'm saying here is that the "standard" offer from shops is *not* your only option. Most shops will add dives to the course if you ask for them. You'll pay extra for it, of course, but if you need/want it for your learning process and/or peace of mind, then it's always worth the money.

I've been reading these boards extensively and from what I understand, in the past, the course was quite a bit longer than it is now.
That was 40 years ago. In that time, some things have changed and the course has gotten shorter but a LOT of divers have been trained and have become good divers using the modern format.

When learning anything, IMHO, you have to allow time for students to absorb and assimilate the information that is being imparted...I just don't think it's something that can be rushed. Potentially, I could be diving to 60' within 4 days of first donning a mask and fins (I have snorkeled before, but that's not a PADI pre-requisite...if you get my drift) . I don't think that's long enough....I could be wrong, maybe I'm over-thinking it and I'll surprise myself

You have several options both during and after the course to make sure you get the experience you're looking for under supervision. For example, most places in the world offer "guided diving" which is a way for you to make dives under "light" supervision. I don't know if you already knew that, but there are armies of dive-guides who do nothing else but take people on tours under water.

Diver0001 I like your idea of more dives and follow up dives...that what I aiming for.
Ask about this before you sign up then. If you're looking for this kind of thing then you'll find that some shops are more flexible than others. As I said above, a flexible shop will offer you what you ask for.

I hope to become part of this special community one day soon.

you will :wink:

R..
 
NoDiver, I think the last few posts says it all. A few things to consider: As stated, the usual course is just a basic one. You must complete the skills in class successfully once, after just having observed the instructor and perhaps other students doing them. This is not hard. I believe that statistics show that new divers, or any divers, that follow the rules very rarley have to use any of the skills, save perhaps for breathing from a free flow, clearing mask, of course. So it is prudent to occasionally practise the skills for the rare time you may need one. Also, extending your sessions via a shop may be a good idea. Also, it seems wise to try to (if possible) buddy up with anyone who has quite a bit of experience--you learn things that way and may have more peace of mind. Remember that you are certified to go to 60'/18M with a buddy in "conditions that are equal to or better than" those in which you were certified. In some areas, this may mean just diving at the same spot you were certified... As well, since you are certified to dive with another OW diver, this says you can dive with a fellow classmate who just graduated with you. So, what would either of you know about rescue techniques, such as what to do if your buddy panicks or you notice he is on the bottom not breathing? Thus, going with an experienced diver sure helps there. Finally, things can happen (like currents that change suddenly, etc.) at depths shallower than the 18M. And, things can be calm and easy below that depth. The 18M is sort of "requirement/suggestion". Many divers gain experience without getting their Advance Cert. and go well below 18M...not suggesting that now at all, but just to point out that 18M is not a magic number. Many charters require Advanced for below 18M to protect themselves. I'm sure you will discover many other tidbits as you gain experience that could not possibly fit into the OW course time-wise. Good luck.
 
That's a perfectly reasonable comment. I haven't done the course yet, but at this stage I wouldn't be happy to be let loose to dive to 18m after only 4 accompanied OW dives, but that's just me.

I don't intend diving below 10m (max) on my first dives and thereafter I will pay to accompanied by an instructor until such time as I feel confident enough to go with a buddy (and then it would have to be somebody experienced). Even then I probably wouldn't go that deep.

I can, however, see that some youngblood would see it as "I'm certified therefore I'm going for it"...a bit worrying I think, but then I'm much older, female, and naturally cautious...and very aware of my own mortality!

I think it is more about comfort level for some than showing off. I went to 30' max in my open water dives, and the very next weekend I was going to near 60'. I am also female, not very young, and cautious. However I have always felt comfortable in the water. I had my own gear before the following weekend, dove with it on my checkout dives, and felt great about being able to handle myself underwater. Even so, I was with experienced divers. I know there is a lot I can learn from them still. But all in all I feel very comfortable under the water.

That's just me though. Another person might not feel as comfortable, no matter their age and gender. It varies from person to person. I am sure there are some show offs out there though :)
 
There are various degrees to this. For example going to 12m and diving to 18m isnt in reality much difference.

Id be more nervous AOW wise if they'd been to 19m and are now qualified to 30m as this is now a large difference in terms of possible narcosis, air consumption, suit compression, light levels, no stop times and so on.
Even worse a deep spec and potentially visiting 19-20m then certified to 40m.

That said, taking it to the extreme the other way i dont have any issue with a diver going to say 80m then being certified to 100m as by that point you're back to "nothing changes" again other than longer stops or less bottom time!

I think there's some merit in some CMAS agency methods (and bsac) in that once you complete a course you're certified to the maximum depth achieved in training. You can then do post-qualification depth progressions in 5m increments with a leader or above up to the maximum depth that certification allows. You don't have to do them though if you dont want to dive that deep.
 
NoDiver: things to bear in mind: :D

1) On training courses you are supervised and protected by an instructor. Going to 18m under the duty-of-care of an instructor is a very safe activity. Having completed the course, when diving without supervision, the novice diver should always dive within limits that they are comfortable with. Setting your own personal limits in diving is something that any responsible instructor would strongly recommend. (As an instructor, I am much more encouraged to see a graduating student who is cautious and conservative in their diving, than an over-confident 'natural' diver who is likely to exceed their limitations and potentially put themselves at risk).

2) Most of the debate about 'short courses' originates from people's exposure to scuba training at holiday locations. Short time on holiday = short time on course. When scuba courses are run in your home location, there are many more opportunities for taking the course at a more leisurely pace, to suit your development. (I did my OW course in the UK.. one night a week in the local pool, and ow diving at weekends, over the space of 8 weeks).

3) The PADI scuba program is modular. OW is the 'intro' of core skills. The AOW course allows further development, refinement and comfort-building. Ignore the word 'Advanced' in AOW; it isn't an advanced diving course. It is an advancement of the OW training. The emphasis is on the 'open water' designation (Advanced OPEN WATER). It is more akin to an 'Open Water +' course. (I took my OW and AOW in combination in the UK. Total training time was 3 months. Very comprehensive and it allowed me to develop confidence gradually).

4) The number of dives included on an OW course (4) represents the minimum needed to conduct the skills and training necessary. It does not represent the maximum. It's common practice for most (good) dive operators to include further dives when the student needs them. Rushing students through 4 dives and certifying them, regardless of ability or confidence, is indicative of an unprofessional diving school/instructor. Every dive school that I have worked for has offered and/or recommended to extend OW courses if the student needed extra instruction.

5) It is normal for a student to experience trepidation and some anxiety before they start the course. Being submerged underwater is far outside the normal human comfort zone. However, that anxiety will dissipate once you gain confidence in your equipment and its ability to supply you with sufficient air to breath. Find a good instructor, who inspires your confidence and trust and who does not rush or pressure you... and you'll soon be a qualified diver who wonders, with hindsight, what all the fuss was about :)
 

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