PADI not teaching dive tables anymore?

[Pullmyfinger]

Wow! I bought the Uwatec bottom timer that I own (and use) for about $250 five years ago. That shows how fast these prices are plummeting in general. Not long ago you could not dream of getting a computer for under $300. Now you can get a good one for half that price.

I wish new ones were available for that cheap. The new Uwatec bottom timers cost over $350.

The used ones that one found here, or on eBay are probably circling the drain in terms of life left. They don't have user replaceable batteries, so when you buy a used one there's no way of knowing how long they will last. I have had good luck with mine so far. I will certainly get my $100 out of it.

As for the Mares Puck. For under $200, that is a good deal. Thanks for the link.

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[drrich2]

I tried using a computer a couple of years ago, but it ended up just being something I had strapped to my arm. I just didn't trust it.

Any particular reason why not? We trust computer systems related to the planes that fly us to some dive destinations, as just one example of the many services & products we use that use computer technology. A popular brand & model of dive computer will be used by many thousands of divers, and you can generally avoid pushing the NDL's.

What's not to trust?

Richard.

 

[lowviz]

They become a habit. A bad habit. You lose all comprehension of staying too long at the party.

They are reliable. They can be trusted with your life.

There are those of us that wish to retain the ability to challenge what they tell us...

 

[Paladin]

Pilots don't completely trust the computers that they use when airborne. They monitor them constantly and have to be ready to fly the plane manually in case the computer malfunctions, as all electronics are prone to do eventually.

All it takes is the failure of a single micro-transistor to cause a computer to produce false data.

As lowviz stated above, reliance on computers tends to become a bad habit and can tempt divers into laziness. I simply choose, for my own diving, not to depend on a computer other than the one that is parked between my ears.

 

[Robert Gillcash]

Tables are inflexible, overly conservative, fairly confusing, and in my experience, not regularly used by anyone anywhere. Why teach them?

This , in my opinion, is why Dive Computers far outweigh the RDP Tables or eRDPml computer. Seriously, how many times have you actually witnessed a diver (not one of your students fresh from certification, but one with 5 or 10 dives) using the tables to plan a dive or to check if they are safe after a dive and after a surface interval?
How many of those divers carry a RDP around with them?
Heck! How many of those even have a timing device (read this as a watch) while they dive?
I'll bet that if you look around you'll see the numbers are astonishingly low.

On the flip side, once they have a Dive Computer, it'll either be attached to their Reg or on their wrist. Once they have a Dive Computer, they always dive with it.

Failure concerns are equal for any method, RDP or Dive Computer. Watches fail, straps break, calculations are done wrong, computers fail. Wether or not something fails is not a good reason to exclude it from use because it 'might' fail. It can only fail if it is being used. Tables are more often than not left at home, in the closet, under a pile somewhere.

Saying that computers are more dangerous than RDP because divers don't learn to use them? What happens when they forget how to use the RDP?

I have taught RDP table, eRDPml and Computers. Overall, I like teaching the Computers best. The divers / students have them with them as they dive and can see instantaneous results of the dive. Not so with RDP tables.
Finally, although teaching Computers has an additional expense for your LDS (thay have to have rental computers), I believe that would be quickly overcome with the higher number of Computer sales. If you learn on a Computer, chances are pretty good you're gonna buy one. Not so for RDP tables.

You trust your life savings in a bank to computer. You trust your life in a car to a computer. You trust your life in a hospital to a computer. Why not teach the same?

 

[drrich2]

I simply choose, for my own diving, not to depend on a computer other than the one that is parked between my ears.

I get your point, but realistically, which is more likely to have significant miscalculations over time; your brain or a dive computer?

If nothing else, the computer's not variably susceptible to narcosis, probably won't get task-loaded beyond its capabilities, isn't apt to get distracted or to forget dive time, etc...

There are so many things that can go wrong with the human brain, the mind boggles...

Richard.

 

[lowviz]

I get your point, but realistically, which is more likely to have significant miscalculations over time; your brain or a dive computer? ...//...

Computers have a nasty habit of turning into your only dive plan: Swim around until your computer beeps or you hit your turn pressure, never sure which will come first. This just isn't good enough for many of us. I fall somewhere in the middle, between "tables only" and "DC's only".

Try this: type six 2's into a calculator and divide by the planned depth in feet. Take this result and divide by the depth again. The result will be surprisingly close to where your computer better put your first hard stop (no prior N2 obligation) for recreational depths on air. Knock 10' off the depth (before each division) if you are diving EAN32. Knock 20' off the depth if you are diving EAN 36. If both sides agree, I'm likely to trust that the thing is both working and set up correctly. Knowing where to expect your hard stops and what you are breathing allows for intelligent gas and dive planning.

I like computers. They show me a nice graph of my dive and allow me extra time on odd dive profiles. I also like to plan my dives and ascent strategies then check them against my computer before I splash.

 

[Diver0001]

Forgive me if this has been discussed. Today I was told by a dive shop employee that PADI is no longer teaching tables to new divers? I really hate to think that they have to dumb things down to this point to keep the c-card presses and package sales rolling?

pffff...

This isn't "dumbing down" anymore than using a calculator for math instead of an abacus is "dumbing down".... .or driving a car instead of walking is dumbing down.....

or wearing shoes instead of going in bare feet.....

All throughout human history we have developed and adapted new technologies to use to our benefit.

I drive a car, I use a calculator and I wear shoes. So do you. Do you feel dumb for it?

Tables had a use when they were developed but they are end-of-life. Using computers for diving, while it will be vehemently resisted by a small group of people, are the present and the future. Tables are quickly becoming an historical curiosity. 50 years for now people will look back on them with the same curiosity that we look back on using J-valves to indicate that the tank was getting empty instead of using an SPG.

... or do you think that having an SPG is dumbing down?

For the time being, we're in a transition period wherein some people don't understand that teaching to use a computer as a tool/instrument to gather information about your dive is not the same as not planning anything. Understanding dive planning is *completely* separate from the tool you use to show you what the NDL is. Is planning *different* when you use a computer... sure. Does using a computer release you from the responsibility to think about what you're doing? Not on your life!

R..

---------- Post added March 24th, 2013 at 01:51 PM ----------

Computers have a nasty habit of turning into your only dive plan: Swim around until your computer beeps or you hit your turn pressure, never sure which will come first. This just isn't good enough for many of us. I fall somewhere in the middle, between "tables only" and "DC's only".

This is completely false. A computer just crunches numbers. Planning is what the diver does before getting into the water.

A failure to plan is NOT the computer's fault any more than jumping into your car and just driving without any idea where you are going is the car's fault.

R..

 

[lowviz]

Would you prefer: "People have a nasty habit of relying on crutches if the crutch is comfortable enough"?

 

[Diver0001]

Would you prefer: "People have a nasty habit of relying on crutches if the crutch is comfortable enough"?

If you mean to say that some people are lazy then yes, some people are lazy.

If you mean to say that lazy people can see the computer as a crutch then I would have to agree that it can contribute to those divers NOT taking responsibility for their planning.

But it's still not the computer's fault.

I knew a diver back in 1980's who never planned his dives either. He took the plastic PADI table down with him an looked at it on the fly. He spent a fair amount of time doing "emergency deco" but at least the procedure was written down on the back of the table so he didn't need to remember it.

Was that the table's fault?

If he had had a computer then he would have (a) spent less time doing emergency deco and/or making unplanned deco dives and (b) if he had had a computer, I'm sure he would have rode the NDL. All in all.... I'm going to say that if that guy had had a computer that he would ahve made safer dives over all.

See what I'm on about? A computer just gives you numbers, but it can't be blamed if the diver is an idiot, and it won't make an idiot out of someone who wasn't one to begin with.

R..