PADI: Need clear & consise explanation on a couple of Divemaster course requirements

[mayesie]

Hi Everyone,
I've received some conflicting information from both PADI and my local dive shop, w/ regard to a couple of completion requirements for Divemaster certification.

My understanding is that all required tasks (along w/ specifics) are either listed in the Divemaster application forms, or the PADI Instructor Manual (I have possession of both).

Here are the items that need clarification:

1) Completion of [FONT=&quot]'EFR Primary and Secondary Care training (current within 24 months)': my understanding is this consists of CPR and First AID training. [/FONT]I completed CPR training through Red Cross last year, and completed First Aid training yesterday through an online course given by International CPR Institute, which is OSHA-approved.

The customer service rep at PADI explained they're not accepting certificates for online courses. I asked her to please show me where it's listed that online certificates aren't accepted for First Aid training, and am awaiting a response.


2) Divemaster Final exam Requirements: In the Divemaster application form, there are a couple of lines to mark the respective scores of both final exams. The following info is specifically stated immediately following the score info for both final exams: or Dive Theory Online. This indicates that the final exams are unnecessary upon successful completion of Divemaster online and Dive Theory online, both which have been completed. However, the shop is now telling me that I still need to finish Final Exam #1 only.


Can someone please clarify the specific requirements mentioned-above? Unfortunately, I don't have a great deal of confidence in the info I've received thus-far.

Please let me know if there's additional info I can provide.


Thanks!

 

[nimoh]

The pre-requisite requirement listed on the PADI website is as follows:

• An Emergency First Response Primary and Secondary Care (or qualifying first aid and CPR training from another organization) course completion within the past 24 months.

Perhaps it is not well worded, but the EFR class includes hands on training for the first aid portion. Without the hands on portion (i.e. online) I think it is reasonable to assume that it wouldn't qualify. I basically interpret this statement as "EFR Primary and Secondary Care (or equivalent)". But in any case, using the phrase "or qualifying..." pretty much leaves it up to PADI to decide what qualifies and what doesn't.

When I did my DM, I did the dive theory online and wrote the exam. If you know the material (as you should), it isn't really a big deal to do both, isn't it?

 

[mayesie]

Thanks for responding Rob!

Regarding the following: If you know the material (as you should), it isn't really a big deal to do both, isn't it?

Here's my answer: Not a huge deal. However, the more prevalent (and applicable) question is: Why aren't the PADI written exam requirements clearly defined and stated?

 

[nimoh]

I agree that they are not very clearly stated, and it gets worse: There are some known mistakes on the exam that to the best of my knowledge, haven't been fixed yet and when you ace the exam but only receive a 99%, that will be annoying too.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

"The customer service rep at PADI explained they're not accepting certificates for online courses. I asked her to please show me where it's listed that online certificates aren't accepted for First Aid training, and am awaiting a response."

Did you ask her why then any shop should accept any on line training? Including theirs.

 

[TMHeimer]

It has been my experience that PADI can be very imprecise. It makes sense to have to do a practical EFR course. Have you contacted PADI? I have asked questions in the past regarding EFR to PADI and two highly respected PADI shops (one that was proclaimed best PADI shop in N.A. in 2010). 3 different interpretations. I would believe there are mistakes in the DM written tests. PADI test questions for most of the courses I've taken can themselves be poorly worded. My advice woulkd be to do whatever the LDS you are doing DM with requires and get the cert. Then you don't have to worry. It is what it is.

 

[WheelsUSN]

Hi Everyone,
I've received some conflicting information from both PADI and my local dive shop, w/ regard to a couple of completion requirements for Divemaster certification.

My understanding is that all required tasks (along w/ specifics) are either listed in the Divemaster application forms, or the PADI Instructor Manual (I have possession of both).

Here are the items that need clarification:

2) Divemaster Final exam Requirements: In the Divemaster application form, there are a couple of lines to mark the respective scores of both final exams. The following info is specifically stated immediately following the score info for both final exams: or Dive Theory Online. This indicates that the final exams are unnecessary upon successful completion of Divemaster online and Dive Theory online, both which have been completed. However, the shop is now telling me that I still need to finish Final Exam #1 only.


Can someone please clarify the specific requirements mentioned-above? Unfortunately, I don't have a great deal of confidence in the info I've received thus-far.

Please let me know if there's additional info I can provide.


Thanks!

Quoted from page 95 of the 2013 Instructor Manual

Administer the PADI Divemaster Final Exam, during which candidates may use an RDP Table and eRDPML, a calculator and the PADI Instructor Manual for reference. Candidates who have completed Dive Theory Online within 12 months (eRecord is proof) may receive credit for Part 2 of the exam.

I think that is pretty clear about Dive Theory Online only counting for part 2 of the exam.

---------- Post added March 27th, 2013 at 08:40 PM ----------

1) Completion of [FONT=&amp]'EFR Primary and Secondary Care training (current within 24 months)': my understanding is this consists of CPR and First AID training. [/FONT]I completed CPR training through Red Cross last year, and completed First Aid training yesterday through an online course given by International CPR Institute, which is OSHA-approved.

The customer service rep at PADI explained they're not accepting certificates for online courses. I asked her to please show me where it's listed that online certificates aren't accepted for First Aid training, and am awaiting a response.

Based on info from OSHA: (source OSHA interpretation letter 08/04/1994 - Training material for first aid and CPR training. )
"The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) does not comment on a first aid or CPR training program until an OSHA inspection is made. It is the responsibility of the employer to make an assessment of the workplace and determine all first aid needs for expected injuries and illnesses."

So it is highly doubtful that International CPR institute has been approved by OSHA as they claim.

In the guidebook that OSHA supplies to employers to assess their own programs ( http://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA3317first-aid.pdf ) it states that:

Training programs should incorporate the following principles:
Having trainees develop “hands-on” skills through the use of mannequins and partner practice;

and

Trainee Assessment
Assessment of successful completion of the first-aid training program should include instructor observation of acquired skills and written performance assessments.


Neither of which happened with your online training. I think you will find that the online programs that offer CPR or First Aid certifications but do not require actually meeting with an instructor for practical skill demonstrations are not nationally accepted like they claim and are actually just a scam to get your money. The standards of Red Cross, AHA, and EFR all require the instructor to observe you complete the skills.

 

[vinx]

Just take the written exam's... leave the confusing requirements for PADI to fixed.

 

[Colliam7]

I've received some conflicting information from both PADI and my local dive shop, w/ regard to a couple of completion requirements for Divemaster certification. . . . My understanding is that all required tasks (along w/ specifics) are either listed in the Divemaster application forms, or the PADI Instructor Manual (I have possession of both).

You raise a couple of interesting questions. I will offer some comments, hopefully clear and possibly concise, to supplement some of the responses you have already received. All requirements for DM certification are listed in the PADI Instructor Manual. I am not aware of a specification to the effect that all requirements are listed on the application form (although it would seem prudent for the form to match the requirements). I am not trying to be picky here, just emphasizing that the IM would be considered the bible, and any application form would be more of an annotated study guide to the bible. But, in any event, I wonder if you are actually referring to the Divemaster Candidate Information and Evaluation Form (which the Instructor retains), rather than the Divemaster Application form (which goes to PADI). More on that, below.

1) Completion of 'EFR Primary and Secondary Care training (current within 24 months)': my understanding is this consists of CPR and First AID training. I completed CPR training through Red Cross last year, and completed First Aid training yesterday through an online course given by International CPR Institute, which is OSHA-approved. The customer service rep at PADI explained they're not accepting certificates for online courses. I asked her to please show me where it's listed that online certificates aren't accepted for First Aid training, and am awaiting a response.

Your question to the customer service representative is very understandable, and not infrequently asked. But, it also may not be relevant (again, no intent to be sarcastic or snide with the term, rather I am pointing out the situation). While it is true that the 'EFR Primary and Secondary Care' course does consist of CPR and first aid training, the stated requirement actually refers specifically to certain training and certification, not generically to CPR and first aid training. The requirements terminology in the Instructor Manual clearly specifies 'EFR Primary and Secondary Care', which is a specific course, and a specific certification (offered by the Emergency First Response Corp., a PADI affiliate). It does not state 'CPR training', or 'first aid' training', etc. In some cases in the past (usually with regard to meeting the pre-requisite requirements for Rescue Diver certification), training from other agencies has been allowed to count toward credit for one or the other, but there is no obligation on PADI's part to do so - the standards are clear that the DM applicant must have completed 'EFR Primary and Secondary Care'. And, as far as granting credit for equivalent training, PADI has consistently, as far as my own experience goes, taken the position that CPR and first aid training must be 'hands on'. So, while you may want to see documentation that online certificates aren't accepted, it is functionally irrelevant because there is no statement in the IM that any alternative to 'EFR Primary and Secondary Care' is allowed for DM candidates.

2) Divemaster Final exam Requirements: In the Divemaster application form, there are a couple of lines to mark the respective scores of both final exams. The following info is specifically stated immediately following the score info for both final exams: or Dive Theory Online. This indicates that the final exams are unnecessary upon successful completion of Divemaster online and Dive Theory online, both which have been completed. However, the shop is now telling me that I still need to finish Final Exam #1 only.

The shop is correct. There are situations where application forms may seem to be at variance with actual standards. In those cases, the standards prevail, and those are listed in the Instructor Manual. But, I am not sure that there is an inconsistency, anyway. The Divemaster Application form - the document that goes to PADI - does not have spaces to list the exam scores. On the Divemaster Candidate Information and Evaluation Form, there is a line for the Instructor to fill in scores. But, it indicates that what should be entered is the 'Part 1 Score ___________', and the 'Part 2 Score ___________ OR ❑ Dive Theory Online'. So, that form is consistent with the IM. If you have completed DTO, then the box gets checked and you do not have to complete Part 2 of the Final Exam. I suspect you are looking at the form and presuming the 'Or Dive Theory Online' check box refers to both parts of the exam. It only refers to the Part 2 score.

As WheelsUSN points out, the wording in the Instructor Manual is clear. To add emphasis to the requirement for completion of a proctored / supervised final exam, the statement immediately above the section that Wheels excerpted states, 'Have candidates complete all knowledge development topics, including successfully completing all Knowledge Reviews. Candidates may study independently using the PADI Divemaster Manual and Video or through the Divemaster Online. Knowledge development may include a combination of independent study, presentations and discussions.' The underlining is mine, added to emphasize that the Divemaster Online course is regarded as independent study to complete knowledge development, and the exam is a separate entity. You will need to take Part 1 of the Final Exam, irrespective of what the form may seem to allow if you have completed DTO.

 

[Diver0001]

The customer service rep at PADI explained they're not accepting certificates for online courses. I asked her to please show me where it's listed that online certificates aren't accepted for First Aid training, and am awaiting a response.

You can't learn how to play the piano by listening to music and you can't learn first-aid by just reading about it.

Seriously. Even IF you have an online certificate, it won't be worth the paper it's printed on the day something really happens and you have to really do something. PADI isn't being mean or arrogant here. it's just too important for you, as a DM, to have a firm foundation.

, the shop is now telling me that I still need to finish Final Exam #1 only.

I actually don't know the official policy but I would get a red-flag from someone who wasn't willing to take the final exam for whatever reason. The final exam is your chance to shine and really prove to everyone that you've learned your stuff. Why would you not want to do that?

R..