PADI Holds The New World's Record for Fastest OW Class

[Storm]

Ok, I agree with your numbers. I like what you're suggesting and can definitely get on board with a program like this. Instead of selling the lowest possible certification lets setup a combined certification which includes additional training and dive time.

Since NAUI includes basic rescue skills in the open water (scuba diver) certification I'm disinclined to throw new divers into the full rescue class, but certainly more time can be spent on it.

I'll suggest this at our next meeting as an option.

That's all anyone can ask.

My goal was not to debunk the current system, but to suggest that there could be improvements to the system and the quality of divers it produces.

I never expected ímmedeate buy in, or overnight changes, but if there is a willingness to think outside of the box, and promote a mentality of contunious improvement to the benefit of both new divers, existing dives, and the indusrty as a whole.

Thanks for keeping an open mind.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Don't forget, people price shop. We offer 6 classroom and pool sessions for 329. That includes use of scuba gear, cert cards, the works. another shop in the next town offers a class for 199 with one pool session.

He trains a lot of divers.

 

[Storm]

Don't forget, people price shop. We offer 6 classroom and pool sessions for 329. That includes use of scuba gear, cert cards, the works. another shop in the next town offers a class for 199 with one pool session.

He trains a lot of divers.

Yes people price shop, and there will always be those who will choose costs over quality. That is why I was attempting to get the agencies to change their standards.

Currently the situation you described is one of the root causes of the issues that I believe needs changing. they are at the top of the food chain, and have more control of the downstream participants...or so I hope.

As it sits today, some shops offer more than the minimum (good for them), some barely the minimum, and some, I suspect (but have no proof...more a comment on human nature) that fudge it for the same of keeping customers happy and buying more gear and courses. Increasing the standards is really the only way to address the issues with the first two groups, punative measures, including removal of training certifications, and in some of the more dire cases, criminal charges etc, the only way to eliminate the latter.


Cheers!

 

[davisdiver]

For the record, I have seen some pretty fast courses completed from other agencies that will remain unnamed. I see no need to get personal about another agency just becasue I dislike their practices. Different people learn at different speeds. If a student does the book independently and completes the required homework them tests well, I see no reason why the classroom time needs to take days to complete. The same goes for how comfortable they are in the water and how much experience they have from swimming, snorkeling and prior Discover Scuba experiences. No, if a student is not ready at a fast rate, DO NOT RUSH!!!! That I will agree with you on. However, if they are ready at a faster rate, then it's insulting and unnecessary to drag out a course becasue someone thinks it shold last longer. The important thing is QUALITY, NOT QUANITY.

 

[Goose75]

Yes people price shop, and there will always be those who will choose costs over quality. That is why I was attempting to get the agencies to change their standards.

Currently the situation you described is one of the root causes of the issues that I believe needs changing. they are at the top of the food chain, and have more control of the downstream participants...or so I hope.

As it sits today, some shops offer more than the minimum (good for them), some barely the minimum, and some, I suspect (but have no proof...more a comment on human nature) that fudge it for the same of keeping customers happy and buying more gear and courses. Increasing the standards is really the only way to address the issues with the first two groups, punative measures, including removal of training certifications, and in some of the more dire cases, criminal charges etc, the only way to eliminate the latter.
Cheers!

Ahh but to press criminal charge first requires breaking a law. Supplying service to certified divers isn't required by shops to meet the law but to reduce liability concerns. If ALL (and it would take all of them) certification agencies increase their standards to the point of reducing customers, many shops will go back to no certification required. That's how it was when my father and uncle learned to dive. The shop hooked up the regulator for them, told them to take a breath and them sent them off to find those abalone! The fact that they were 12 at the time didn't deter anyone. That is what the agencies have changed by offering a profitable reduced liability model for the shops. Go to remote vacation spots and it becomes even harder because it becomes more a balance of profit and a cost conscious customer perception of safety. Any change in standards has to keep these balances in mind or it won't work.

That said, I personally do believe some changes can work and would improve things, especially on the AOW level. I just think that sometimes we get so caught up in a perfect world scenario that we forget the agencies are a business and not a regulatory body. There is a place in the market for the perfect scenario we often talk about but it is a small portion that is already serviced by smaller enterprises.

 

[Storm]

Ahh but to press criminal charge first requires breaking a law. Supplying service to certified divers isn't required by shops to meet the law but to reduce liability concerns. If ALL (and it would take all of them) certification agencies increase their standards to the point of reducing customers, many shops will go back to no certification required. That's how it was when my father and uncle learned to dive. The shop hooked up the regulator for them, told them to take a breath and them sent them off to find those abalone! The fact that they were 12 at the time didn't deter anyone. That is what the agencies have changed by offering a profitable reduced liability model for the shops. Go to remote vacation spots and it becomes even harder because it becomes more a balance of profit and a cost conscious customer perception of safety. Any change in standards has to keep these balances in mind or it won't work.

That said, I personally do believe some changes can work and would improve things, especially on the AOW level. I just think that sometimes we get so caught up in a perfect world scenario that we forget the agencies are a business and not a regulatory body. There is a place in the market for the perfect scenario we often talk about but it is a small portion that is already serviced by smaller enterprises.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think a reall good one could argue a good case for criminal neglegence, or at the very least gross neglegence.

As to the increase in standards reducing the number of diivers, first off I do not think , in the long run, it would reduce the numbers significantly enough to effect the agency bottom line, and as to the LDS side of thing s I think you might find that by producing a safer and more committed diver their botom line improve as I beleive that the drop out rate would reduce somewhat.

 

[boulderjohn]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think a reall good one could argue a good case for criminal neglegence, or at the very least gross neglegence..

PADi's instructor training materials emphasize that failing to follow required standards could leave you at risk in case of a law suit. If something bad happens and you were following accepted standards, you are almost certainly safe. If, on your own, you change the standards, you would have to demonstrate that what you did meets an acceptable level of quality, and you would be on your own in convincing the judge and jury that you did the right thing.

This is, however, a civil matter, not criminal.

 

[Storm]

This is, however, a civil matter, not criminal.

That would all depend on the reasons or circumstances prompting the legal action. If it was a case of minor personal injury, then it would most likely be a civil matter, but if there was severe injury, crippling or death, than it could also go down the criminal side.

But this is a deflection rom the issue, that of changing/improving standards.

 

[oceanaddicted]

Holy Crap! I'm an instructor (NASE out of Salt Lake) in Cape Canaveral and I have trouble teaching students what the need to know in the planned 32 hours of training, and that's just classroom and pool time. My theory is to teach them everything I know within their OW level of training. Gives the students the info they need to stay safe and dive more efficiently, and keeps me from getting sued because I forgot to tell 'em something! I left PADI a long time ago due to their many levels of training require and their fees. They sure know how to make a buck! They just aren't getting mine! Thanks for the info. You said SHIP? As in Cruise ship? Which one?

 

[caseybird]

That would all depend on the reasons or circumstances prompting the legal action. If it was a case of minor personal injury, then it would most likely be a civil matter, but if there was severe injury, crippling or death, than it could also go down the criminal side.

Hey Storm! are you looking to close down diving? Cause that's what your going to get by advocating criminal penalties for dive instruction. Let's just work on our skills, shall we?