PADI - DM active vs inactive

[mcohen1021]

I let my PADI DM cert expire after 1999. The main reason was because I was no longer assisting with classes or giving anyone refreshers.

I have heard about PADI DMs and higher needing liability insurance for 30+ years to cover lawsuits, since I started diving. I understand that need if you are currently acting as a scuba professional… However… I have never heard of an active or inactive DM being personally sued while not acting as a PADI professional. In fact, I would be highly interested to see an example… I have serious doubts that a pro level diver could be held liable when not acting as a professional when it comes down to it.

If someone told me they were going to sue me because I was a DM on their boat during a scuba trip, I would laugh in their face and tell them to bring it.

 

[JackD342]

I let my PADI DM cert expire after 1999. The main reason was because I was no longer assisting with classes or giving anyone refreshers.

I have heard about PADI DMs and higher needing liability insurance for 30+ years to cover lawsuits, since I started diving. I understand that need if you are currently acting as a scuba professional… However… I have never heard of an active or inactive DM being personally sued while not acting as a PADI professional. In fact, I would be highly interested to see an example… I have serious doubts that a pro level diver could be held liable when not acting as a professional when it comes down to it.

If someone told me they were going to sue me because I was a DM on their boat during a scuba trip, I would laugh in their face and tell them to bring it.

30+ years is pretty extreme, but the reason (at least in the US) to maintain insurance for some years after going inactive is because these professional liability policies are generally written as "claims made" and not as "occurrence." If a claim is made today based on an incident from two years ago when you were insured, but you are not insured today, you are not covered. I think that coverage for an inactive pro to address prior years' activity but not current activity is written a little differently, and hopefully for a lower cost. But I can't say that for certain.

 

[lowflyer]

What would you suggest that is doable?

I admit that I might be wrong in assuming most DMs work under someone "assisting" in a number of possible ways described in the Instructor Manual. For re-upping DMs, leave it up to the instructor or business being assisted to determine if the DM is up to snuff and capable of working with them, particularly since they likely share some liability for the actions of their DM.

The instructor or business would let PADI know that the DM is qualified, the DM would pay his dues and get liability insurance, and in most cases off he goes to an expensive hobby.

That would be my way of doing it. YMMV since no approach covers every contingency.

 

[tursiops]

I admit that I might be wrong in assuming most DMs work under someone "assisting" in a number of possible ways described in the Instructor Manual. For re-upping DMs, leave it up to the instructor or business being assisted to determine if the DM is up to snuff and capable of working with them, particularly since they likely share some liability for the actions of their DM.

The instructor or business would let PADI know that the DM is qualified, the DM would pay his dues and get liability insurance, and in most cases off he goes to an expensive hobby.

That would be my way of doing it. YMMV since no approach covers every contingency.

That sounds like a pretty good plan, for those DMs actively working wifh an instructor/ shop.

 

[ChuckP]

30+ years is pretty extreme, but the reason (at least in the US) to maintain insurance for some years after going inactive is because these professional liability policies are generally written as "claims made" and not as "occurrence." If a claim is made today based on an incident from two years ago when you were insured, but you are not insured today, you are not covered. I think that coverage for an inactive pro to address prior years' activity but not current activity is written a little differently, and hopefully for a lower cost. But I can't say that for certain.

That is very interesting and something I need to look into - my "normal" business liability insurance does not or did not work that way, policy paid for 2020 covered any problems in 2020 - that was a landscaping company not scuba diving. Also, that policy was waaaayyyyy more money than pro level diving insurance - just interesting as I've never heard of that......

With that coverage, you'd have to maintain coverage thru the what the heck is the name for it but the amount of time you could possibly be sued.....

 

[JackD342]

That is very interesting and something I need to look into - my "normal" business liability insurance does not or did not work that way, policy paid for 2020 covered any problems in 2020 - that was a landscaping company not scuba diving. Also, that policy was waaaayyyyy more money than pro level diving insurance - just interesting as I've never heard of that......

With that coverage, you'd have to maintain coverage thru the what the heck is the name for it but the amount of time you could possibly be sued.....

I just checked the V&B website, and the full year premium for an instructor is $699, a retired instructor is $437. I don't see an amount listed for retired DM - maybe there isn't a separate rate? The full year DM rate is also $437.

I don't find a suggested timeline to maintain a policy after lapsing as a pro, but I believe PADI's records retention policy is 7 years, so that may be a good indication.

Also, they point out that if any policy lapses, no "prior occurrences" are covered when signing up for another policy. So you can't let it lapse, hear that one of your former students had a major incident, and run out to buy a new policy to cover you for that previous liability before someone has a chance to file a claim. Once there is a lapse, all bets are off. (I think there is a grace period though if you are just late getting your $$ in for the next year.)

 

[ChuckP]

I just checked the V&B website, and the full year premium for an instructor is $699, a retired instructor is $437. I don't see an amount listed for retired DM - maybe there isn't a separate rate? The full year DM rate is also $437.

I don't find a suggested timeline to maintain a policy after lapsing as a pro, but I believe PADI's records retention policy is 7 years, so that may be a good indication.

Also, they point out that if any policy lapses, no "prior occurrences" are covered when signing up for another policy. So you can't let it lapse, hear that one of your former students had a major incident, and run out to buy a new policy to cover you for that previous liability before someone has a chance to file a claim. Once there is a lapse, all bets are off. (I think there is a grace period though if you are just late getting your $$ in for the next year.)

That whole coverage method seems weird. On one mil in sales, I paid about 20k in liability for landscaping and snowplowing - for Michigan, you had two years to file an auto claim and I’m pretty sure the same on any other claim.

I switched carriers and we had a slip and fall claim filed from previous year, my old policy covered it cause it happened under their coverage, just had to report it to the new carrier.

My last year in business, a truck was totaled our fault, both drivers hurt, that’s auto and comp coverage but those guys are still covered even though my policy is closed out - they still have 13 months to file suit if need be. I maintain all business records for seven years so my paperwork is more than covered.

I wouldn’t count on knowing about a possible incident but by keeping records, it’s all you can do and the carrier takes care of the details. I’m just baffled how I can have coverage during an incident, retire and stop coverage two months later, be sued six months later and not be covered...... I really need to check into that - here in Mexico we really don’t need coverage but........

 

[JackD342]

That whole coverage method seems weird. On one mil in sales, I paid about 20k in liability for landscaping and snowplowing - for Michigan, you had two years to file an auto claim and I’m pretty sure the same on any other claim.

I switched carriers and we had a slip and fall claim filed from previous year, my old policy covered it cause it happened under their coverage, just had to report it to the new carrier.

My last year in business, a truck was totaled our fault, both drivers hurt, that’s auto and comp coverage but those guys are still covered even though my policy is closed out - they still have 13 months to file suit if need be. I maintain all business records for seven years so my paperwork is more than covered.

I wouldn’t count on knowing about a possible incident but by keeping records, it’s all you can do and the carrier takes care of the details. I’m just baffled how I can have coverage during an incident, retire and stop coverage two months later, be sued six months later and not be covered...... I really need to check into that - here in Mexico we really don’t need coverage but........

Go ahead and read up on it. I first was introduced to the difference between Occurrence and Claims Made while working on a project for my day/real job at a major US retailer. Vendors selling us goods for resale are required to have specific minimums of insurance covering possible liability on their products, and so that particular distinction was very important. (I don't recall if a Claims Made policy was ever allowed or not, it has been quite a while since I worked on that. I think Occurrence can also be written to cover a specific limited period of time rather than be left open ended.)

Assuming that Occurrence has higher costs, I'll sum it up simply as "you get what you pay for."

 

[JackD342]

From the V&B FAQ page:
Vicencia & Buckley - A Division of HUB International - Dive Insurance, Dive Boats, Dive Store/Resorts, Professional Liability

I won’t be teaching again until after the first of the year, why must I renew my insurance?

By not renewing, you will have a gap or lapse in your insurance and will not have coverage for any "prior acts". This means if a student makes a claim against you for a wrongful act that occurred prior to your gap or lapse in coverage, then you would not be covered for this student's claim. This would be a "prior act".

In addition, the insurance you are purchasing is a "claims made" policy, requiring you to have insurance at the time of the claim. For example, you certified a student in 2004 and your insurance expired in June 2005. You obtain insurance again in January 2006, however, your student has an incident in October 2005 and files a claim against you. You will not have coverage for this claim because you did not have insurance at the time of the incident and since you had a "gap" in coverage, you will not be covered for any acts prior to January 2006.


It is important to maintain continuous coverage even if you won't be actively teaching for a while. We strongly recommend you purchase the non-teaching or retired protection.

 

[TMHeimer]

Yeah, right, nice job of "not" bashing PADI.
Read it again. What you say had an element of truth prior to 2003. It is the renewal requirements (which involve more than just paying money) that maintain the updatedness of the DM; note the sentence, "Members who continue to renew each year provide PADI with the assurance that they are implementing new and revised standards-related information."

I must admit I too thought of what lowflyer said. I was active 2012 through 2015, so yes, there was more than just paying the membership fee. I dutifully completed those video presentations or whatever--the ones that update you on what's current re standards/other stuff. Occasionally I would FF through a part that had no value to me (perhaps a marketing part, can't recall exactly), then continue. So I got the 3 videos "completed" and that was it for this year. Not very time consuming. I don't think PADI had a clue, let alone "assurance" as to whether I took them seriously (I did), or just let them run while watching TV.....
I miss those videos--enjoyed them.

You asked what could be suggested that is "doable"? I admit I have no idea. There is no way for PADI to send reps to re-test DMs, nor is it practical to have some more extensive requirement to remain active each year--such as a lengthy classroom requirement or having shop instructors check them out in the pool each year (when they probably know how good they are anyway). That would have seemed to me to be a hassle when I knew I was doing well. Living 50 miles from the shop it would also have cost time and gas. One of those things like "should we re-test drivers every 5 years"--to make sure they still know the rules and can drive safely. Of course not. As I said, I'm no PADI Basher, and they probably are doing what is practical. It's just not an "assurance" of "up to snuff".

Again, not a PADI basher, but note that in the 2002 Training Bulletin section you quoted there are no specifics as to what you'd have to do after whatever said number of years you were inactive. Perhaps it is up to the individual shop? I don't know, but shops can require anything they want in order to hire/rehire someone. Specifics from PADI would make things very clear. To me it is vague.

lowflyer-- I'm not on board with having instructors/shops inform PADI that a DM is up to snuff and good to become active again. May work a lot of the time because the shop owner most likely wants competent people working there. But, I've all too often read on SB of lousy shops and incompetent instructors.