PADI Dive Master Course

[exnewwavedivers]

First of all, let me just start by saying that in doing a divemaster course, students should expect happy and miserable moments. In preparing a student to be a dive professional responsible for other people's lives, candidates are not baby-sitted, but rather nurtured and guided. There may be times when things are difficult, sometimes rewarding too.

Discussion between the instructor and candidate is encouraged and intructors should appreciate that because it shows that the candidate is someone who is thinking.

Se7en:

Our instructor looks to be excellent at teaching OW students the PADI way, but isn't able to discuss the material beyond 'this is what PADI says'.

Can you give us specifics? A few examples that we might be able to discuss further with fellow members of this board?

I'm not sure that what I think is necessarily right - but the instructor sure cannot explain WHY the PADI way is correct either.

Like what?

despite three of us trying to explain it to the instructor, they were not able to understand why we though that air consumption should be measured in litres rather than Bar.

Normally, you measure the rate of air consumption in terms of liters per minute based on surface.

The DM manual does concentrate a fair bit on selling PADI - I wasn't expecting to have to come up with reasons why I should do AI as part of the DM course.

You are not required to do an AI course with your divemaster training. During this course, you are being prepared to do AI or IDC and in so doing, preparing your for leadership level. Perhaps your instructor is selling you another course before your current one is even finished?

Also, all the marketing stuff is a bit much for people who don't want to go out and sell diving. I don't want to convince people to dive.

It's a part of your duties as a divemaster to help the dive center promote their business. Regardless of your personal reason for doing the course, you will be trained with the assumption that you may work in the dive business. Otherwise, you may as well be buying a certification.

I of course wanted to ask why the students were overweighted.

Normally done during the initial confined water dives and adjusted each time during buoyancy checks. Students buoyancy changes as they become more accustomed to the water, scuba equipment.

One of the things I have been taught to do in the DM course is change from booties and a steel tank, to rubber foot fins (neg boyant) and an ali tank so that I can do fin pivots. Why? I don't dive like that, and neither does any of the other instructors or DMs. So why teach OW students how to plow the sand?

What is your idea of teaching buoyancy control for students? Please share with us.

Well, here's hoping for a lively but healthy discussion!

P.S. About that remark by usil:

Dude, finish the DM coarse. Learn the "PADI" way of diving and take what you can from it. Just because you are a " PADI DIVEMASTER" ( insert fanfare) dosn't mean you have to dive like a PADI divemaster, or teach like one. Teach your way.

For as long as you represent PADI, and as long as you follow the standards, you're ok. About teaching your way, there is a certain element of truth to that, although that's not what usil probably meant.

A lot of the skills that instructors teach to students, it's based on how it was shown in the video. Of course it is ok to have variations as long as it is clear, easy to understand and do, and most important, satisy the performance requirement for that skill.

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by newwavedivers
First of all, let me just start by saying that in doing a divemaster course, students should expect happy and miserable moments. There may be times when things are difficult, sometimes rewarding too.

Difficult is fine - If we are not pused to learn something, the course is a bit pointless. Miserable is going a bit far IMHO... Weather and diving isn't going to make me miserable, neither is hard work. Pointless crap might...

Can you give us specifics? A few examples that we might be able to discuss further with fellow members of this board?

Like what?

OK, how about these?
SAC measured in Bar (as I mentioned before)
Why 60 minute washout is considered safer than expedential
Why you should trim a diver so their feet are heavy
Why a tank valve needs to be turned off a full half turn
If I can spend 10 minutes at 38 metres (Not sure if this figure is correct for RDP, but I'm 800km from my RDP, and from memory it's right), then the 5min tissue will be saturated to 28.5 m. Most theory is that the M(0) value for this (or any) tissue should not exceed 2... however, this represents a value of almost three. How can anyone tell me with a straight face that I don't need to decompress? Even if you take into account the washout which ocurs as you ascent (note that you won't start washing out this tissue until you are shallower than 30 m), an ascent at the maximum rate still puts you on the surface with M(0) greater than 2. To dive safely to these depths, you need to decompress.
Snorkles???
Why is a PADI DM or Instructor qualified to dive Solo?
Why do you have to use the wheel for calculating multilevel dives when the Tables do it just as easily?

BTW - I'm not particularly looking for answers to these questions. I obviously have my own answer, I'd just like to hear valid justification as to why the PADI answer is correct.

Normally, you measure the rate of air consumption in terms of liters per minute based on surface.

Yep - that's what I'd do to. The examples in the DM manual and the instructor manual that we were given were in bar.

You are not required to do an AI course with your divemaster training.

Read the Knowlege review for chapter 9 of the DM manual (P187)
You have to explain why you should become an AI and then an Instructor, and as part of the DM course you must answer these questions satisfactoraly.

It's a part of your duties as a divemaster to help the dive center promote their business.

Sorry - but this is crap. As an unpaid DM I have no 'duty' to help the dive centre promote their business. Next you will be wanting to fine me if I introduce a friend to local diving, rather than making them take the appropriate course. Or do a couple of refresher dives with someone who hasn't dived for a while.
Or even, god forbid, suggest that a diver trys my regs which the shop I am doing DM with does not stock anymore.
As I see it, I have a duty to give anyone who asks and trusts me the best advice I can.

Regardless of your personal reason for doing the course, you will be trained with the assumption that you may work in the dive business.

I have no problem with this, and general sales training can be included. I think it is a little too PADI focused, that is all.

Otherwise, you may as well be buying a certification.

What? There is no value in being trained in how to assist other divers if I don't know know how to sell them the next course? I hope you are just taking the piss here...

Students buoyancy changes as they become more accustomed to the water, scuba equipment.

NO IT DOESN'T. A persons boyancy is the sum of all the positive and negative boyancy of themself and their equipment. It does not change.
What changes is how well they learn to control it - and why make this process harder by changing them from stupidly negative to profoundly negative across the OW course? Why not set them up close to neutral? Then give them an extra 3 pounds and say that as an instructor you can only control multiple students if you have them anchored to the bottom? (which is the real reason instructors overweight students)

What is your idea of teaching buoyancy control for students? Please share with us.

I would like to teach trim as well as boyancy - which means teaching students that if they can do fin pivots, they are not properly trimmed...
Lying flat on the sand and adjusting boyancy so you rise off the sand is an OK eqivalent to fin pivots.
Emphasising that boyancy is dynamic - that there is not some nirvana called equilibrium that you can obtain would also be good I think...

Well, here's hoping for a lively but healthy discussion!

No problems, hope I obliged

ciao
Mike

 

[otter-cat]

Se7en,

I am also in the process of acquiring my PADI DM certification. I think many of the points you raise are very good ones. I, too, think that the course is a little too heavy on selling PADI itself, and also agree that it's annoying that I have to recite reasons why I should become an AI, although, technically, it just asks why I should "consider" it, which isn't quite as bad. Basically, you are a student, and PADI is ostensibly making sure that you are aware of the advantages of continuing your education, just as OW students are told reasons that they should continue theirs. However, it does seem like they are just trying to sell more courses and recruit more people into higher dues-paying levels, and that irks me.

I think that one of the biggest problems you have is that you are not compatible with your instructor. Regardless of the agency, the quality of your instructor is the factor that will make or break any course. Other instructors of the PADI DM course would be able to explain PADI's rationale for their positions better than the one you have. This does not necessarily mean that you would agree, or even that they agree, but there are reasons behind PADI's methods, and I think that hearing those reasons is what you are after, so you can evaluate them in your own mind. Obviously, after hearing them, you will either agree, or disagree. PADI requires that in training to become a DM, and when acting in an official capacity as a PADI-certified DM, you do and teach things by their methods. However, since you do not plan to work for a dive operation, once you have completed the course, you can give whatever advice you feel is best. Your friends don't pay you to answer questions in the capacity of a hired divemaster. They ask because you have more experience. Give them the answer that your experience has led you to believe is the best. The situation might be different if you were being paid as a PADI DM, but otherwise, just because you TOOK the PADI DM class doesn't mean you have to agree with or do everything they presented. Get a different instructor, if you can.

I agree with Kwesler and the others that you are exactly the type of person I'd like to have in a DM position. I want the person who tells me something to UNDERSTAND it, not just repeat "policy." I want to know an experienced and educated person's opinion on the best method for the circumstances, based on their experience AS WELL AS their education. Just their education may not be appropriate in a given situation. And if they don't understand WHY a given piece of advice is recommended, how can I trust that it is appropriate for the circumstance?

I guess that I would recommend finishing the course, since there still may be some things you pick up about assisting other divers, even if you don't agree with all of it. Since the reason you are taking the course is to be able to better help less experienced divers, you might as well finish it, learn as much as you can, and use what you feel will be most helpful. During the internship, if you can't find a better instructor, then just hold your tongue, and let the instructor teach as he chooses, as in that situation, that will be the most beneficial for the students, rather than confusing them. After all, that is what they will learn if you aren't there anyway.

Good luck!
otter-cat

 

[neil]

Originally posted by SubMariner


Unfortunately, if we follow your scenario, then there are 4 people (3 students and a DM) sitting around doing nothing while the Instructor works with the student who is having the problem. You will then have 3 bored (and cold) students and one DM who is nothing more than a glorified babysitter. To me that doesn't sound like fun for the students or effective use of a certified assistant.
However, if we do it the way I described, then EVERYONE is doing something positive. And it is only a matter of minutes before the student who was experiencing the problem is back up to speed with the rest of his/her class.
~SubMariner~

This is wrong, IMO. The only person who should be teaching the "problem" student is the instructor. The divemaster's job at this time is tho engage the class in some sort of skill reinforcing practice or even some games. Divemaster shouldn't be taking that responsibility. And there are times when a DM IS a glorified baby sitter. Just my 2 cents.
Neil

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by otter-cat
During the internship, if you can't find a better instructor, then just hold your tongue, and let the instructor teach as he chooses, as in that situation, that will be the most beneficial for the students, rather than confusing them. After all, that is what they will learn if you aren't there anyway.
[/B]

Thanks

Don't worry - I'll be happy little PADI during the internship, and I will be doing it with a different instructor than the one who is taking the rest of the course.

I appreciate that new divers have a lot to learn, and that all who teach them should be teaching the same way, and the same material. I can also accept that at times it is easier to teach a simplified answer that works, than one which is completely correct - as long as you can give the full version if someone wants it.

Mike

 

[neil]

Mike,
You ask a lot of good questions and seem like a bright and sincere person. You are indeed being fed some real crap and obviously you know it. I read your post above with all those questions and have to say something. Many of the things you have been told are the "PADI way" are nothing of the sort. A common problem is that instructors, and even instructor trainers don't really know what's in the standards and the agency literature, or how to interpret them.

For instance: fin pivots. My pet peeve. The ONLY purpose of this exercise is to demonstrate what breathing does to buoyancy, and how to operate the BC controls. Nothing else. There is NOTHING in PADI standards that says you have to weight students so their legs will be heavy enough to do fin pivots.
So how do you meet the standard if their fins aren't touching the bottom? The standard says "fin tips or, when appropriate, another point of contact". I think fingertips are appropriate. Your instructor hasn't read or understood the standard.
And why the hell do we have to have students do fin pivots in OW? What message is THAT sending?

Nowhere in PADI literature does it say that DM's and Instructors are qualified to dive solo. Did I miss something?

Nowhere in PADI literature does it say to back your tank valve off a half turn. Page 58 says "all the way".

I think you get my point. You're being trained by someone who hasn't read or understood the standard, read the text, or put any thought into questioning why things are done in a certain way, and, heaven forbid, how to do it better.
Inexperienced and poorly trained dive leaders perpetuate some of the most amazing and archaic garbage! (Can I say "crap" here?) If you can't get your money back, get your card and get away from this person!

Good luck to you.

Neil

 

[Se7en]

Originally posted by neil

Nowhere in PADI literature does it say that DM's and Instructors are qualified to dive solo. Did I miss something?

If you are Instructing, you have no buddy. If you are DM, taking divers on a tour, you have no buddy. Anytime there is not another diver who is there as your support, I'd consider it a solo dive. (ie, I'll only dive deeper than 30m with a redundant air supply - which is either on me, or on a _trusted_ buddys back)

Nowhere in PADI literature does it say to back your tank valve off a half turn. Page 58 says "all the way".

Ummm - we must be talking about different things here. I was talking about the practice of turning the valve all the way on, then off half a turn...

Inexperienced and poorly trained dive leaders perpetuate some of the most amazing and archaic garbage! (Can I say "crap" here?) If you can't get your money back, get your card and get away from this person!

The instructor isn't that bad, just not what I was expecting. It's not worth the aggrivation to pull out of the course, and I will be with a different instructor for the internship, so it should be better. I have a good relationship with the shop, and can always talk to some of the other instructors if there are issues which I feel really unhappy about. The money aspect doesn't worry me at all, it's a small component of what I'll spend diving this year.

Thanks for the info on how the boyancy exercise can be done not using a fin pivot - I didn't know that. And for what it's worth, I think touching the bottom can be fine sometimes - we dive around piers quite often with a sandy bottom. Swimming off and lying on the bottom can be fun... as can getting really negative and trying to walk etc. We play around on occasion on beach dives - good practice at times.

thanks
Mike

 

[Zept]

Originally posted by Se7en
If you are Instructing, you have no buddy. If you are DM, taking divers on a tour, you have no buddy. Anytime there is not another diver who is there as your support, I'd consider it a solo dive.

Seems to me it isn't quite the same as diving solo, because you aren't alone. If you run out of air, you'll be embarrassed, but you can grab someone's octopus. If you get tangled up in something, at the very least your divers ought to be able to surface and summon help. And if you lose all your divers and then get tangled up in something and run out of air... you aren't doing a great job as a DM .

I'm not meaning to diss DMs with this comment... I wouldn't fancy their responsibities. I just think they aren't as crazy as solo divers.

Zept

 

[SubMariner]

Neil:

The only person who should be teaching the "problem" student is the instructor. The divemaster's job at this time is tho engage the class in some sort of skill reinforcing practice or even some games. Divemaster shouldn't be taking that responsibility

No where did I say that the DM was TEACHING the student.

During the confined water session students are TAUGHT how to do the skill by the INSTRUCTOR. However, if a student has problem performing the skill, it makes perfect sense to have them work on it with someone who KNOWS how the skill is supposed to be performed and is able to perform that skill to the required demonstration quality.

Also, just as important for the student, is for them to practice that skill with someone who has the watermanship & knowledge to be able to handle any possible problems that may occur while practising underwater. Guess who that is?

In the PADI system DMs and AIs (aka Certified Assistants) are dive professionals. When it comes to working with students it IS their responsibility to assist the Instructor in handling students. That includes what I described.

Se7en:

I think part of the problem in communication is that you are confusing what an INDIVIDUAL INSTRUCTOR does with what is required under PADI STANDARDS.

Thus, might I suggest getting a copy of the Instructor manual (or borrowing one from the dive shop) so that you can go over the standards for the particular areas in question?

Alternately, you can email any of us who are Instructors, or contact PADI Training directly at (800) 729-7234.

Knowledge is power!

~SubMariner~

 

[Paul168341]

Once again, Good Post Sub.

Also, students tend to feel a bit more comfortable (read: less nervous) working with a C.A.
A DM or AI is "closer" to the student and is not responsible for the final evaluation.