PADI a pain?!?

[MikeFerrara]

Actually, we're not. I think their standards are just short of criminal.

I don't. I'm aware of enough incidents like some of the AOW deep dive accidents that Steve and I mentioned that if it were up to me some one at PADI (and maybe other agencies) would be prosecuted. I think it is criminal.

 

[mislav]

What I meant was they let you in the water with only the basic knowledge of diving and let you find out the rest on your own if you continue to dive and survive that long. We're on a same page here, Walter.

Actually, we're not. I think their standards are just short of criminal.

How is that different from what I said about PADI?

 

[mislav]

Who writes the low-level standards that the Padi Instructor must adhere to?......and who states that nothing should be added or taken out of the program lest your course be different the guy's half way around the globe? Yes Padi.

What's more, the prospective Instructor has spent his entire life watching first hand how Padi courses are conducted, from their own OW up to them helping in DM classes. They can rightly assume that this is how the training must be done, as that's all they have ever seen, and Padi certainly hasn't told them otherwise, so the faulty training continues as the problem feeds on itself. This is why it will continue to be this way for a heck of a long time.

I know MI's plus that I wouldn't feel at all comfortable with diving in 70ft. They themselves haven't been off their knees in 3 years, and their personal dives are limitted to nill, which is to say the sum of their diving is in 25ft of water kneeling on a platform with their students.

The best part is when they express interest in becoming the next CD in the area.

I see a continuing problem in the ranks for a while yet.

I won't even tell you of the ineptness in dive skill that I saw in my IDC and IE. And these people are now out doing exactly what Mike had stated. Bringing students to depths beyond 60ft when they themselves have no business in the world being there.

I agree with what you say here. Again, it's no different from my post you quoted. The only difference, but again, we may feel the same here, is that PADI does cover a lot more material in their programs than their instructors teach during courses based on those programs. I do not blame PADI for this.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I don't. I'm aware of enough incidents like some of the AOW deep dive accidents that Steve and I mentioned that if it were up to me some one at PADI (and maybe other agencies) would be prosecuted. I think it is criminal.

In all seriousness I can't for the life of me figure out how some class-action lawsuit hasn't yet been launched over all of this. I can't imagine there hasn't yet been a rich guy who's family member bought it on a BS course and they decided to go after them.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

I agree with what you say here. Again, it's no different from my post you quoted. The only difference, but again, we may feel the same here, is that PADI does cover a lot more material in their programs than their instructors teach during courses based on those programs. I do not blame PADI for this.

When you've seen enough accidents that should never be happening on course, you'll see it differently.

When you see why the accidents are being caused by you'll see it differently.

When you realize that the agency knows full well what's going on and refuse to correct the actions, re-write standards and effectively discipline the instructors, you'll see where the fault lays here.

It's a world-wide systemic problem and it's is knowingly being ignored for profit's sake.

You may as well believe that smoking doesn't cause cancer either, because the tobacco companies have been saying that for decades too,.......does anyone really believe that anymore?

I have seen countless real safety violations, accidents and out-right skuldugery.....I know for a fact that the agency has been informed, and I have YET TO SEE any meaningful move via any method to ensure the same thing doesn't happen again, either by that instructor or the instructor base as a whole. I have NEVER see an instructor tossed or even suspended for anything OTHER THAN, not paying their annual dues.....or something like a sexual advance towards a student.

I even went so far once as to ask what was the acceptable student body count now adays before they would actually do much, given one of their recent QA's. They couldn't pin a number on it, but it's more than 1 plus a whole lot of attempts, evidently.

I get the "We're clamping down, student safety is number one" speach all the time....the final action is complete BS if it's anythignng at all, and so actions speak louder than their propoganda.

 

[Cacia]

I have been wanting to mention this--but don't want to be seen bashing PADI, as I am PADI trained since NAUI.

But the other day, I was helping with a group of discover scuba clients---they were med students from Tripler. And the instructor started barking at me that "we don't tell them ANYTHING about the inflator" "IT IS DISCOVER Scuba". She says that we are supposed to adjust their bcds and lead them around...they aren't supposed to touch them.

???


could this be true? I don't really know the assortment of standards to be honest...kind of a bad idea if true.

They keep changing the ratios, so I don't jam up my RAM with that stuff---I just do what the instructor asks if I am helping, it is their program, but I was uncomfortable with this. The guys---who can certainly grasp a concept about air expanding just blinked back at me, like "alrighty then".

 

[Charlie99]

......and who states that nothing should be added or taken out of the program lest your course be different the guy's half way around the globe? Yes Padi.

Several times statements have been posted along the line of "PADI doesn't allow anything to be added to the course".

Is this really true? Can anyone quote the standards as saying this?

I thought that PADI instructors were allowed to add just about anything they wanted to the course, but were prohibited from failing someone for arbitrary reasons, such as not being able to do 30 pushups while in full scuba gear.

Was my instructor violating standards when we covered many additional things during my OW class?

 

[JohnW]

The way I see it, they are all about the same. THE difference is THE instructor.

So true, this has been stated several different ways in similar threads.

Several times statements have been posted along the line of "PADI doesn't allow anything to be added to the course".

I don't think this is true(I have'nt looked it up to be sure).

I've been fortunate so far as any of the Instructors I've had (they have all been PADI) have added more value into the course than just the bare PADI Minimum. I've learned skills that pertained directly to the course, but were not required by the course.

 

[MikeFerrara]

In all seriousness I can't for the life of me figure out how some class-action lawsuit hasn't yet been launched over all of this. I can't imagine there hasn't yet been a rich guy who's family member bought it on a BS course and they decided to go after them.

Such a small percentage of people dive and a really small percentage are hurt. It's not like buying insurance or going to the grocery store...we all do those things...and I'be gotten letter telling me that I had $25 coming from several class action suits.

I'm not a lawyer but I think the group that would have the best chance at a class action suit is all the people who have suffered minor ear injuries during the discover scuba diving program. From my time owning a dive shop I'd say that it might even be a majority of the participants...because they go out for a dive after CW dive 1 and buoyancy control isn't taught until mod 3. the injuries are literally built into the program. They have to happen and they do.

The obvious problem is that so many of these take place out of the country. Can a US resident sue a US developer of a program that was conducted in some third worl country somplace by a resident there? I don't know but I'd like to see them try.

the other problem is that, in court, things are judged based on standards. All the divers hurt during AOW deep dives, need to show that the instructor wasn't following standards (acting as a reasonable prudent instructor) or that there is something wrong with the standard...much harder. On top of that there are all the releases and the fact that no one twisted their arm to go diving. The agencies know the law and have protected themselves pretty well.

I'm not so sure that they are protecting the instructors nearly as well though.

 

[Divedoggie]

As long as the required standards are covered, you are free to add your insight and flavor to the instruction, as long as it isn't dangerous, contradictory or incorrect.
This is just plain smart. The instructor's liability is very small if she/he directly follows the standards and key points.
That said: I have been a professional coach, and a history teacher for years, and I had a hard time buying into the PADI methodolgy while going through my AI. But, as I understand it better, I am starting to appreciate where PADI is coming from.