Oxycheq Vertex vs Halcyon Evolve vs DSS Torus

[Halthron]

I had the same issue with my Torus, and moving the wing did not solve the issue. I put 3# in a tailweight and that seemed to tame things. I did not need this solution in the Evolve 40, nor do I need it with my DR Classic. This is with my AL80s.

I did not have this issue with LP95s, and I am going to try the Torus tomorrow with a set of 104s. I'll post back.

Good to know, the problem seems to be confined to the more positive tanks.

 

[*Floater*]

I've used the Torus 45 with short, fat 12L steel doubles in Egypt with the wing one slot north of center position relative to plate. During those dives I did not experience the head down tilt albeit I wasn't doing deco dives.

I also used the wing with AL80's (~11L's) in the Philippines, and experienced head down trim, which was most noticeable during deco when I was just floating there and not finning. This was not the case with the Evolve 40. I posted pics of both wings in another thread, and from them you can see that the Evolve is widest around the center, so I assume that's where it's lift is centered, whereas the Torus is widest towards the rear, so I guess that's where it's lift is centered. Of course, the more gas you have in the wing the more it's center of lift will impact your trim. (By the way, does a proper expression exist for 'center of lift'?)

Halthron, have you tried the Vertex with heavy loads, say with steel plate, can light, 3 AL80's and an AL40 deco bottle?

 

[cool_hardware52]

Many people transitioning to doubles also are moving to thicker more buoyant exposure suits, wet suit to dry suit, or perhaps more / thicker undergarment.

This means more ballast. For most that means more weight on a belt. Having the "center of lift" lower on the body helps counter this additional mass on a belt.

This may not be true if you are using little exposure suit.

For moderate to cold water trimming out a rig with a Torus has never been a problem for me.

Tobin

 

[Patrick]

I test drove a few doubles wings over the last couple of months and wanted to post stats and opinions.

The wings used: Halcyon Evolve 40, DSS Torus 45 and Oxycheq Vertex 55. All buoyancy ratings are from the manufacturer.

Dimensions at widest / tallest points:

Evolve: Max width 26.5", max length 29"
Torus: Max width 29.75", max length 25.5"
Vertex: Max width 27", max length 25"

The Vertex 42 will be coming out soon. It is obviously more streamlined than our 55.

Best regards,

Patrick
---
OxyCheq
http://oxycheq.com

 

[Halthron]

Halthron, have you tried the Vertex with heavy loads, say with steel plate, can light, 3 AL80's and an AL40 deco bottle?

I've used it with double AL 80s with an AL 80 deco and can light, but that's it so far (it's still kinda new). I wouldn't necessarily consider that or what you posted a heavy load though, especially later in the dive as tanks become more buoyant. I'm heading to wreck country this weekend; not sure what's on the plate but if it's big deco then I'll be sure to post if there's problems with the Vertex.

Many people transitioning to doubles also are moving to thicker more buoyant exposure suits, wet suit to dry suit, or perhaps more / thicker undergarment.

This means more ballast. For most that means more weight on a belt. Having the "center of lift" lower on the body helps counter this additional mass on a belt.

This may not be true if you are using little exposure suit.

For moderate to cold water trimming out a rig with a Torus has never been a problem for me.

Tobin

If your market is cold water divers, that's fine. I was just passing on the info that the wing, in my limited experience with it, seems less than perfect for warm water tech dives. This seems to be backed up by a few other people. The purpose isn't to insult you, your company or the wing, rather to provide information to those looking to purchase a wing.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I've used it with double AL 80s with an AL 80 deco and can light, but that's it so far (it's still kinda new). I wouldn't necessarily consider that or what you posted a heavy load though, especially later in the dive as tanks become more buoyant. I'm heading to wreck country this weekend; not sure what's on the plate but if it's big deco then I'll be sure to post if there's problems with the Vertex.

If your market is cold water divers, that's fine. I was just passing on the info that the wing, in my limited experience with it, seems less than perfect for warm water tech dives. This seems to be backed up by a few other people. The purpose isn't to insult you, your company or the wing, rather to provide information to those looking to purchase a wing.

Halthron,

I'm not insulted, not in any way. I welcome feedback. On line forums like SB are a very valuable resource for me. The range of users is huge, well beyond my close circle of teammates.

In my opinion there are a few more things you could do to correct your admitted overweighting, and these would likely also benefit your trim with our wing.

A bit tongue in cheek perhaps, but another way to look at your results is the other wings discussed here are better for an over weighted diver using too heavy a plate....

There are many choices in wings, and it's unlikely that any one design will be ideal in all circumstances.

What percentage of Tech dives (doubles) are undertaken with modest exposure suits? Some no doubt, Mexican Caves are an obvious example.

Are many Tech dives undertaken in moderate to cold water? Quite a few.


Tobin

 

[Halthron]

In my opinion there are a few more things you could do to correct your admitted overweighting, and these would likely also benefit your trim with our wing.

A bit tongue in cheek perhaps, but another way to look at your results is the other wings discussed here are better for an over weighted diver using too heavy a plate....

I'm not sure why the emphasis is on weighting. On every tech dive I do that goes right, I'm overweighted and my buddy ought to be as well. We all start out overweighted, we have yet to use the gas we're carrying.

Let's work backward. Double AL80s, AL80 deco, AL40 deco for a total of 280 cubic feet of gas. 1/3 of that gas is my buddy's so even if I drain my share dry, I'll still be carrying 90 cu. feet at the end of the dive. Only if the poo hits the fan will I end up perfectly weighted. If I set my weighting to be perfect with 90 cubit feet remaining and then my buddy needs it, I'll be underweighted at the end of the dive. Not something I want to be while trying to hold a 10 foot deco stop.

I really don't think the issue has to do with the total amount of weight used. Weight locations perhaps but not total weight used.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I'm not sure why the emphasis is on weighting.

You said you were overweighted in post #5

I was already overweighted just using the two aluminium 80s and a manifold with my 6 lb plate and cannister light and deco bottles,

And again in post #7 you reference being overweighted.

There's only so much weight you can remove and when tech diving in the tropics, it's easy to get overweighted quickly.

And again in post # 10 you claim to still be overweighted even with an aluminum plate. If that's the case you must be substantially overweighted with a 6 lbs SS plate.

I've tried an OMS aluminium plate, I was overweighted.

These aren't my words, they are yours. I define proper weighting as the minimum required to complete the dive safely including holding all required stops. More weight than that is "overweighted"

Are you now saying you tried the Torus with both a 6 lbs SS plate and with an OMS al plate?


Tobin

 

[Halthron]

The wing either works properly in the situation or it doesn't and wordplay isn't going to make it change. The simple fact is that multiple people have claimed to have a minor problem with the Torus when using AL tanks, problems that I at least haven't had with an Evolve or Vertex.

 

[PerroneFord]

I tried out my Torus 45 today with both 104s and 108s.

Diving the 104s was an excercise in frustration. The tanks were SO head heavy there was absolutely nothing I could do to balance them out. I was working on trim and tanks for an upcoming class. I had a 7mm farmer bottom and a 5mm farmer top. I was in a SS backplate. I had no additional weight to begin with. With legs fully extended it took less than 3 seconds to put me on my head. I added a 3" tailweight to the tanks. Same result. I added a 5# tailweight, and was still very head heavy, but could maintain trim if I fully extended my legs and kept finning.

Switching to a set of 108s with just the 5mm top improved things tremendously. Trim was normal, and no counterweight was needed. I was unable to try this setup with the 7mm bottoms. Perhaps next weekend.

From all appearances it seems the Torus 45 is excellent with tanks that tend to be a bit butt heavy. But for tanks that float a bit butt light, or neutral, they tend to require a small or significant amount of counterweight. I have used this wing in salt and freshwater, I have used it with LP95s, AL80s, LP104s, and LP108s. I have used this wing back to back with the DR Classic wing.

My body type: 6'0, 245, stocky and muscular legs, round stomach. Without neoprene my legs tend to sink rapidly and my upper body tends to float. The Torus 45 effecively reverses my normal body floating position.

These are just my non-scientific observations.