OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

[Jcp2]

In reading everything and thinking a bit since I last posted, I’m changing my mind a bit. If dive operations were large corporate operations like ski resorts, then I think a strict waiver like what happens when you purchase a lift ticket would be fine, and then when you take a lesson with an employed instructor, it’s also fine to mention any physical limitations to him/her at the time of the lesson, and they’ll adjust what and how they teach.
But diving is a bit more catastrophically risky than skiing, and dive operations a bit less well financed than ski resorts, and the instructors are far more exposed from a liability standpoint, so the extra procedural step of asking health questions and requesting a medical exam is both informational and allows the dive operations some protection so that they can grow as a business. Once that liability hurdle is passed, the student can be more open. It can be burdensome to the student and the dive operation, but the alternative (at least in the US) is far fewer regulated opportunities to dive at all, as I can see a lot of operations closing shop or becoming very restrictive in terms of who they will teach and provide air to.

 

[purbeast]

Internet access is not always guaranteed, just as a warning. And if you live in the same place, it should be fairly easy to go to the same doc - but what if you move? Do you think it would be reasonable for all PCPs to refer mild asthma to a pulmonologist in order to get an inhaler? And on your thread, you said you had dived prior to getting the letter, what would you have done if you went through all that, had all the tests point to you being fine, but the pulm still didn't want to sign off?

I just think there are better ways to release liability to the diver than asking their doctor to sign a note annually. Or worse, some dive shop says when you arrive that the letter from 8 months ago isn't recent enough, so they will exclude you.

I said I put it on my phone so I don't need internet access to view it. It is very rare that I would be in a place without internet and NOT have my phone, so it's pretty much a moot point.

If I moved I'd have to get all new doctors in general, so getting a new doctor to go through this process probably wouldn't be that difficult. Again, I've lived with asthma my whole life and had more doctors appointments than people without asthma have, so this is nothing new to me.

I also don't go to my PCP or a pulmonologist to get my asthma medicine prescribed. I go to my allergist/asthma doctor. They are the one that referred me to a pulmonologist to get these tests done and who is more knowledgeable in the area of SCUBA and how it can affect the lungs.

I do have to go to my allergist/asthma doctor at least once a year to get refills for prescriptions even if there is nothing out of the ordinary going on. They won't just refill it over the phone without me coming in and them verifying that things are going normal. I'd also assume if I did move to another place where I needed to find a new doctor that a phone call would be useful and could pass some knowledge down about my history. My current asthma doctor I've only been going to for like a year though because the one I grew up with retired. And it was the first time I ever saw this pulmonologist too.

If I went through all of this and STILL didn't get the letter, then I'd go find another doctor and explain my situation to them, because I know that I would be fine. I do see both sides though that there are definitely better ways it can be done. But what those ways are I really don't know.

 

[rsingler]

In the US and in much of the world, this a self-regulated industry/activity. If we fail on our own to keep this as safe as possible, then someone else will step in and start the regulation and the litigation that we would much rather avoid.

I had to go all the way back to page 3 to find this, but THIS is the essence of the issue, IMHO.
Dive shops are not gold mines. This business field is barely hanging on in some areas. It's trying its best to teach a somewhat risky sport and not get sued out of business. Our medical waiver process, as cumbersome as it is, is the most economical way to get to do what we love to do: dive. It's not perfect for everybody.
But if we advocate going around this system, we will bring on far worse. Imagine having OSHA oversee not just parts of commercial dive ops, but your personal instruction? OMG!
I hear the criticisms, and I sympathize. I really do. But the cure would be worse than the disease. We've created a workable system. Fill and sign the form. Be honest. Get the waiver. Keep the lawyers and the bean counters as far away as possible.

My last 2¢.

 

[caruso]

I learned something new on this thread.

Even if a potential student diver checks one or more "yes" boxes and is thus forced to go through the whole process of finding a dive physician, getting clearance to dive, understand, acknowledge and accept they may have to dive with certain limitations and risk, and pay whatever the doctor might charge over and above their insurance coverage, and yet is ultimately unable to get the clearance due to ignorance, apathy or liability concerns on the part of the doctor, they can simply scrawl an illegible signature on the medical form and nobody will ever know.

 

[dmaziuk]

Nice job of retaining the fantasies and forgetting the facts.

I am glad you approve.

Unfortunately every point there is technically true and to date I have not seen a compelling rational rebuttal to any of them. That's why the fantasies proliferate and this flamefest ignites every year.

 

[oly5050user]

I learned something new on this thread.

Even if a potential student diver checks one or more "yes" boxes and is thus forced to go through the whole process of finding a dive physician, getting clearance to dive, understand, acknowledge and accept they may have to dive with certain limitations and risk, and pay whatever the doctor might charge over and above their insurance coverage, and yet is ultimately unable to get the clearance due to ignorance, apathy or liability concerns on the part of the doctor, they can simply scrawl an illegible signature on the medical form and nobody will ever know.

unless the dive op is unsure of validity of signature and calls doctor. Now would that be an an embarrassment to student. I would call if i question signature. Sort of like a student writes all no's on medical and during first pool session I see a huge scar from heart surgery on chest. No pool for that student until I get a valid medical release from doctor.

 

[Charles2]

I sure am glad that the sport of skydiving is not encumbered with medical questionnaires. There is; however, this four or five page liability waiver with places for initials on every paragraph and what seem like assurances that "your gonna die" on every page, that we are required to sign annually. I'm OK with that.

 

[caruso]

Sort of like a student writes all no's on medical and during first pool session I see a huge scar from heart surgery on chest. .

If the guy was smart he'd have an alternate phone number and he'd give that to you as his doctors number and he'd disguise his voice when you called and say the diver is cleared for diving in a gruff voice. Then again if the diver was so stupid that he'd check "no" to a heart condition while wearing a huge red flag on his chest in the form of a surgical scar he'd never pull that one off in a million years.

 

[oly5050user]

If the guy was smart he'd have an alternate phone number and he'd give that to you as his doctors number and he'd disguise his voice when you called and say the diver is cleared for diving in a gruff voice. Then again if the diver was so stupid that he'd check "no" to a heart condition while wearing a huge red flag on his chest in the form of a surgical scar he'd never pull that one off in a million years.

Placed on ignore list

 

[dmaziuk]

In the EU keeping the forms is a burden from a data protection point of view. It is not impossible but a hassle to comply and there is no benefit.

I think it might be worth spelling out that the current data protection act is supposed to cover EU citizens regardless of who and where collected the data.

You keep forms for 7 years? -- Make sure you didn't train any of those Yurrupeans in the last 7 years or you may be breaking their new law. Even if you're a Canadian running a dive shop on a Mexican island.