OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

[JackD342]

There is a SB emoji for that.

 

[SapphireMind]

you are in a very unusual position with regards to your particular conditions and that is something to bear in mind when looking at the process as a whole. You have the knowledge as to how your condition presents on the surface as well as the understanding of the physiology that is causing it. What you don't have though is the knowledge of how that MIGHT affect you underwater. We undergo physiological changes when we dive (mammalian dive reflex) which causes circulatory as well as other changes (including a very large fluid shift). Can you guarantee that a pressure increase of 3-4 bar which will cause a large blood shift to your torso and head might not have an adverse affect on you underwater? Even a qualified hyperbaric doctor might struggle to give an accurate prognosis of what might happen in certain circumstances underwater because diving physiology is not an exact science. What the hyperbaric doctor can do however is look at the best current evidence and extrapolate how the dive reflex might affect your particular issues.

Just because you are continuing to question my personal dive condition, I will continue to answer. I am incredibly aware of how the mammalian dive reflex works LOL And you have obviously not been paying attention because it's not a matter of pressure or fluid shifts - remember, I've stated earlier that I've had negative tilt table testing, echocardiagrams etc. I am also very aware of how the vagus nerve works and the method of my personal condition is not affected by pressure. I also happen to enjoy wearing corsets, which put quite a bit of pressure on my torso LOL y'all are trying incredibly hard (with no medical knowledge) to ignore all my medical investigations and say that I'm unsafe to dive. Which is exactly why people don't like disclosing, if their doctor has cleared them.

These sorts of health disclosures are used all the time outside of diving. Kids in school? Forms needed. Kids in Scouts? Forms needed. Kids in sports? Forms needed. I was team manager for a kids sports team and I collected the medical forms with insurance information for the organization for our team so we could have players registered, covered by association insurance, and so I would know who had life threatening allergies, what they were to, and who to call. I also had consents for medical treatment, and I carried it around whenever the team was together so that if something were to happen, we could know what to do.

Notice all those examples though are children? We're not children.

As a reminder, if people do lie on the forms, it does release the dive shop/instructor from all liability. So there's no argument that it is putting those at greater risk.

 

[KenGordon]

On the last couple of liveaboards I have been on (which were split roughly 50/50 between under and over 50) I am quite sure that none of the over 50s had to answer yes to any of the questions or provide a doctors cert (the form was the RSTC one despite no training). They are all healthy (probably healthier than me tbh).

In a proper system people are healthy and then dead, non of this lingering about consuming resources nonsense. The NHS spends half its money on the last two years of life.

Being Scottish you should embrace the approach taken in Glasgow. Burn bright etc...

“According to the World Health Organization in 2008, the male life expectancy at birth in the Caltonarea of Glasgow at that time was 54 years.” Glasgow effect - Wikipedia

So, the reason tha5 your over 50s are all saying no is that they ones that would answer yes are all dead already....

But, being serious for a moment... as a dive club using Council facilities I get spammed with all the schemes to make people active and fit. The aims for those schemes are surprisingly low.

U.K. divers, although not marathon runners, do get out of bed and go outside now and again. This puts them ahead of the curve wrt the general population. U.K. diving is quite strenuous, cold and generally obviously incompatible with being nearly dead. This is not true of diving in warm water locations, well at least the obviously bit. The diving is organised in groups of people who may have known each other since they were young and fit. Hiding real problems is hard. This means that British divers tend to be less extremely unfit for their age. That is saying something as if you go to any inland dive site they are not at all fit looking.

When I first dived in the Caribbean I was honestly shocked.

 

[KenGordon]

As a reminder, if people do lie on the forms, it does release the dive shop/instructor from all liability. So there's no argument that it is putting those at greater risk.

Are you saying that it isn’t or is not putting the shop at greater risk? There may be no argument but which side of that non arguement is the case? I will guess you are saying it does not increase the risk of liability.

Really we should care a bit less about liability and maybe worry about injury. I know you lot live in a place where liability is the one true excuse for doing what happens to be expedient. However, if a diver isn’t actually not fit to dive and lies on the form then they are exposing the shop/instructor/dive buddies to the risk of being involved in an accident/rescue/death etc. That is not at all for free, there is a risk of physical injury or death for rescuers, aside from all the trauma etc.

Bleating on about liability is missing the point.

 

[SapphireMind]

Are you saying that it isn’t or is not putting the shop at greater risk? There may be no argument but which side of that non arguement is the case? I will guess you are saying it does not increase the risk of liability.

Really we should care a bit less about liability and maybe worry about injury. I know you lot live in a place where liability is the one true excuse for doing what happens to be expedient. However, if a diver isn’t actually not fit to dive and lies on the form then they are exposing the shop/instructor/dive buddies to the risk of being involved in an accident/rescue/death etc. That is not at all for free, there is a risk of physical injury or death for rescuers, aside from all the trauma etc.

Bleating on about liability is missing the point.

Right, but we've established that the form is really for liability. It doesn't create safety. I'm just saying liability is a non-issue. Again is it the assumption whether someone is fit to dive and lying on the form for not having the doctor's note handy vs someone trying to hide that they are not fit to dive. That's why I think overall the form is a non issue, but I understand others' opinion. (meaning, if you are fit and have had it investigated, it doesn't really matter whether you lie or tell the truth, safety wise, because you've done the due diligence. If you're not fit and lying to avoid having to deal with it, it's unlikely they would get an actual dr's note anyway and are likely to still be unsafe diving.)

 

[KenGordon]

Right, but we've established that the form is really for liability. It doesn't create safety. I'm just saying liability is a non-issue. Again is it the assumption whether someone is fit to dive and lying on the form for not having the doctor's note handy vs someone trying to hide that they are not fit to dive. That's why I think overall the form is a non issue, but I understand others' opinion. (meaning, if you are fit and have had it investigated, it doesn't really matter whether you lie or tell the truth, safety wise, because you've done the due diligence. If you're not fit and lying to avoid having to deal with it, it's unlikely they would get an actual dr's note anyway and are likely to still be unsafe diving.)

Why would you lie on the form if you are fit and have seen a qualified doctor to confirm you are fit? The doctor signs his/her bit and you are good.

“Not having the doctor’s note handy”? Really?

If you are training you will probably have booked it and had time to find that note. If it is spontaneous and you are a new trainee then you will need to see the doctor if necessary. That is what these forms are intended to do.

If you are going on holiday, Take the note. Keep it with your passport, travel insurance and whatever else you need to take on trips.

 

[tridacna]

Right, but we've established that the form is really for liability. It doesn't create safety. I'm just saying liability is a non-issue. Again is it the assumption whether someone is fit to dive and lying on the form for not having the doctor's note handy vs someone trying to hide that they are not fit to dive. That's why I think overall the form is a non issue, but I understand others' opinion. (meaning, if you are fit and have had it investigated, it doesn't really matter whether you lie or tell the truth, safety wise, because you've done the due diligence. If you're not fit and lying to avoid having to deal with it, it's unlikely they would get an actual dr's note anyway and are likely to still be unsafe diving.)

It’s hard to understand exactly what you’re trying to say from these verbose posts. Are you actually trying to make a point or just troll us with your obviously fabulous knowledge of diving medicine?

 

[JackD342]

Right, but we've established that the form is really for liability. It doesn't create safety. I'm just saying liability is a non-issue. Again is it the assumption whether someone is fit to dive and lying on the form for not having the doctor's note handy vs someone trying to hide that they are not fit to dive. That's why I think overall the form is a non issue, but I understand others' opinion. (meaning, if you are fit and have had it investigated, it doesn't really matter whether you lie or tell the truth, safety wise, because you've done the due diligence. If you're not fit and lying to avoid having to deal with it, it's unlikely they would get an actual dr's note anyway and are likely to still be unsafe diving.)

You and I are never going to agree with each other, but I still feel the need to counter much of what you say.

"we've established that form is really for liability" No such thing has been established. There is no doubt that it does manage liability. But first and foremost, I believe the intent is to educate and inform the diver, and possibly their physician, about some very real and unique physiological hazards with diving. Even if I was magically immune from any possible lawsuit, I would continue to use the form because IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!

"it doesn't create safety" I have never heard of anything that "creates" safety, but I guess I think I understand what you mean anyway. Just for a moment, consider what would result if there was no proactive attempt whatever to address medical issues upfront with new divers - purely "buyer beware." How many fatalities and crippling injuries would it take to convince you of the need for such a system?

"lying on the form" I'm not going to go find a specific quote of yours, but they are numerous and varied. One of your positions seems to be that in an honor system that does not have rigid double-checks and enforcement, it is justifiable to ignore the system and lie, because others can and do lie also. I vehemently disagree. Back in school, if the teacher always left the room during exams making it easy to cheat with no consequences, that would not justify cheating. No matter how many others do it.

And that is how we arrive at the need I feel to respond to your posts on this thread. I worry that your continued public and vocal stance that a diver should game the system, and even act as their own medical expert, will eventually lead someone reading your posts to act on that advice and suffer severe consequences as a result.

 

[doctormike]

And that is how we arrive at the need I feel to respond to your posts on this thread. I worry that your continued public and vocal stance that a diver should game the system, and even act as their own medical expert, will eventually lead someone reading your posts to act on that advice and suffer severe consequences as a result.

Exactly. SO often do I find myself replying in a thread not for the person that I'm debating, but for all of the new divers who read these threads over the years.

I went out of my way to set the context for my concern:

"This may seem patronizing or presumptuous, but hear me out. Obviously I don't know you, I haven't examined you, and what I'm saying may seem totally off base. But sometimes it's good to look at something with fresh eyes."

Nevertheless, I was accused of having an attitude, trying to be dominant, and being deliberately obtuse.

Hey, I can take it.

What I can't take is the idea that someone will read this thread and conclude that syncopal episodes aren't a deal breaker for diving if you can convince yourself that human physiology is 100% understood and that because you have had a workup, your symptom progression and outcomes are always going to be the same, even over time, even in completely new environments (i.e. under water at depth), because of reasons.

 

[BRT]

Are you saying that it isn’t or is not putting the shop at greater risk? There may be no argument but which side of that non arguement is the case? I will guess you are saying it does not increase the risk of liability.

Really we should care a bit less about liability and maybe worry about injury. I know you lot live in a place where liability is the one true excuse for doing what happens to be expedient. However, if a diver isn’t actually not fit to dive and lies on the form then they are exposing the shop/instructor/dive buddies to the risk of being involved in an accident/rescue/death etc. That is not at all for free, there is a risk of physical injury or death for rescuers, aside from all the trauma etc.

Bleating on about liability is missing the point.

Liability is the point.