OW and AOW

[mweitz]

There are a lot of posts here regarding the "shortcomings" of the OW courses from the various training agencies. Then there are a lot of posts here from people saying to wait a while before doing AOW. Things such as "Get 30 dives in first" or "Wait till you have your buoyancy down".

I was "sold" the AOW class as the "rest" of the OW class. If the OW class is indeed lacking as so many of you claim, then new students should be enrolled in a AOW class as soon as they can. They (we) get another 6 supervised dives, some book reading (not great, but better than nothing) and some additional classroom and pool time. We also get 4 specialty classes that are geared to our local conditions.

The AOW class also gets new students back into the water, most likely increasing their confidence. From my understanding a lot of people get their cards then never dive again.

So, why not go straight to AOW?

Mark

 

[DiveMaven]

I guess for me and my DH it made more sense to us to practice our "beginning" skills before moving onto "advanced beginning" ones. We decided to get 20-25 dives under our belts before taking AOW, and in retrospect I'm glad we did.

In just 15 dives we have improved our air consumption by about 80%, we have dropped weight, and our bouyancy has clearly improved (hovering just doesn't present the challenges it used to). We still have a LOT to learn and quite a bit of room for improvement, but we both feel great about the progress we've already made.

Since we are both former lifeguards and competitive swimmers, we are both very much at home in the water, so that was one hurdle we didn't have to jump. Had we gone straight to AOW, we would have had to use rental equipment, but now we've bought our own rigs and will not only be very familiar and comfortable with them prior to the class, but I feel will benefit more from the Peak Performance Bouyancy part by using our own equipment. In addition, we've decided we want to add Nitrox to our AOW class, and I know that had we done it immediately after OW, we wouldn't have made that decision. Plus, with our air consumption improving dramatically, we'll get more out of Nitrox than before.

A pet peeve I have is that some people who complete AOW immediately after OW think they are now "advanced divers". That they are "qualified" to dive deep, hazardous wrecks or walls, yet they don't have the practical dive experience they really need to safely do it. We want practical experience before and after our AOW class so that we have the ability to fully understand our limitations and can make educated decisions about where and what we should be diving.

 

[jbd]

There are a lot of posts here regarding the "shortcomings" of the OW courses from the various training agencies. Then there are a lot of posts here from people saying to wait a while before doing AOW. Things such as "Get 30 dives in first" or "Wait till you have your buoyancy down".

I was "sold" the AOW class as the "rest" of the OW class. If the OW class is indeed lacking as so many of you claim, then new students should be enrolled in a AOW class as soon as they can. They (we) get another 6 supervised dives, some book reading (not great, but better than nothing) and some additional classroom and pool time. We also get 4 specialty classes that are geared to our local conditions.

The AOW class also gets new students back into the water, most likely increasing their confidence. From my understanding a lot of people get their cards then never dive again.

So, why not go straight to AOW?

Mark

Diving is a set of skills applied to laws of physics. Any thing that is skill based requires practice. Practice does not come from taking more classes. It comes from going out and doing it.

Too many people think that because they "know how" to dive they are good at it. Very similar to me playing golf or tennis. I know how each game is played and understand some of the tactics used however I can I can count the number of times I have played both games on one hand with some leftover. IMO that does not make me a golfer nor a tennis player.

I frequently see and hear the comments about getting in more dives with supervision. A properly educated and trained certified OW diver should not need the supervision of an instructor. If the presence of an instructor is required to make a certified diver feel safer then they are not really ready to be certified.

Many of the folks that get certified are doing it for a vacation trip and have no further interest. Some just want to try it and once they do its over for them. Many who might have stayed with it leave IMO because they never developed the confidence needed to dive safely in their opinion. This is due to poor quality training and education.

Keep in mind that the instructors and LDS's that are pushing non stop taking of classes are doing it for business reasons. Its all about the bottom line. Once they have wrung out what money they are going to get out of you in the way of classes and gear the honeymoon is over.

Diving is a skill set, The question each of us needs to ask is, How good am I at these skills? The truth is, a whole lot of us really aren't very good at it and certainly not as good as we think we are.

Like all skilled based activities it take proper training and proper practice to be really good.

 

[pasley]

A pet peeve I have is that some people who complete AOW immediately after OW think they are now "advanced divers". That they are "qualified" to dive deep, hazardous wrecks or walls, yet they don't have the practical dive experience they really need to safely do it. We want practical experience before and after our AOW class so that we have the ability to fully understand our limitations and can make educated decisions about where and what we should be diving.

What more could I possibly add? I agree on every point. You need to practice what you already have. The AOW course, could give a false sense of ability and worse, the some dive boats will book you for "advance" dives with it, and not ask how many dives you have. AOW should mean more than I have 4 additional supervised dives, and have done one dive to 80-100 FSW, one navigation dive, one night dive and one photography dive. That was my AOW at 50 dives.

IMHO A new diver should dive often and not with other new divers. Find someone with 50 or more dives and go diving. Then after say 50 dives do the AOW and add night diving to the mix.

 

[eponym]

There are a lot of posts here regarding the "shortcomings" of the OW courses from the various training agencies. Then there are a lot of posts here from people saying to wait a while before doing AOW. Things such as "Get 30 dives in first" or "Wait till you have your buoyancy down".
I was "sold" the AOW class as the "rest" of the OW class. If the OW class is indeed lacking as so many of you claim, then new students should be enrolled in a AOW class as soon as they can. They (we) get another 6 supervised dives, some book reading (not great, but better than nothing) and some additional classroom and pool time. We also get 4 specialty classes that are geared to our local conditions.
The AOW class also gets new students back into the water, most likely increasing their confidence. From my understanding a lot of people get their cards then never dive again.
So, why not go straight to AOW?
Mark

Good question and some good points, Mark.

I'd say that a diver after my own heart would get close to mastery of the skills taught in OW before expanding his competencies significantly (with, for example, drysuit, nitrox, or rescue skills). It's hard to put a number of dives to that--more important are how much dive time is devoted to practice rather than sight-seeing, what role models you've had, how quickly things fall into place. I've found it's easy to fool myself into thinking I've got something down pat, only to realize in a different setting (new buddy, poor viz, new application of a skill) that it still needs work.

While I agree that most OW classes are "lacking," what they're lacking is the time to work on OW skills. For example, dropping enough weight and learning buoyancy well enough that the class can practice mask removal, air sharing, etc. while hovering instead of while sitting on the bottom. I suppose you could call this the integration of skills--and OW is just too short a course in most cases.

AOW shouldn't be the place to master OW, rather the place to learn new skills and integrate them into a stable OW skill set. In my opinion.

Regardless, you sound thoughtful and interested. Good to hear your thoughts.

I see you dove Tahiti & Moorea after OW. Nice!
Bryan

PS: Are you looking at a package deal for four specialties plus Stress & Rescue to get the SSI Advanced c-card, or an AOW course from another agency? Just curious.

 

[AADiveRex]

Sometimes it also depends on the student's individual abilities and goals. I can ususally pick out of my open water dive classes those that will be interested and quickly ready to take the AOW class, and it is usually those students who were "naturals" at the basics, ie, good basic skills, breathing control, buoyancy, etc. For these students, I recommend they do a minimum of 10 dives on their own, then I will put together an AOW class for them. Otherwise, I expect that they get some more dives under their belt before I will recommend an AOW class.

In order for the AOW class to be of use to them, they need to be able to focus on the new skills and activities, and not be distracted by less-than-automatic execution of the basics, like clearing a mask or adjusting bouyancy. Likewise, as an instructor, I have found that an AOW class where the divers are not yet proficient at the basics, the time in the class and on dives is wasted with remidiation of their basic skills, and they get less out of the class.

Another important consideration is their experiences in terms of their self evaluation of their needs. I focus a part of the time in the AOW class to gear rigging, streamlining, bouyancy-weighting-trim adjustment, etc., which requires that the divers have some feel for what has been working for them and what hasn't. If they have no diving experience to base these decisions on, they are less likely to get as much from it.

Dive Safe
Adam

 

[mweitz]

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. I am going to try to answer some of your questions. I mostly started this thread so there would be a good reference for new divers.

Let me say this. My buoyancy sucks. My air consumption sucks (well, it is OK). I feel over weighted (though I am using less then recommended. There is a LONG way to go. Hopefully at 100 dives I'll start to feel like I'm a diver....

Diving is a set of skills applied to laws of physics. Any thing that is skill based requires practice. Practice does not come from taking more classes. It comes from going out and doing it.

I frequently see and hear the comments about getting in more dives with supervision. A properly educated and trained certified OW diver should not need the supervision of an instructor. If the presence of an instructor is required to make a certified diver feel safer then they are not really ready to be certified.

Awesome statement for the first part.

Getting six additional dives does count as "practice" in my book. (our AOW is 4 shore dives and 2 boat dives).

I’m perfectly able to go out and shore dive and boat dive on my own. But I’ve found that “practice” does go a long way and having a “coach” to help usually accelerates the learning process. What is wrong with having someone experienced continue teaching you? Of course I agree classes shouldn’t be used as a crutch.

IMHO A new diver should dive often and not with other new divers. Find someone with 50 or more dives and go diving. Then after say 50 dives do the AOW and add night diving to the mix.

As a newbie to the sport I don’t know anyone with over 50 dives. I have the most dives of my “class”. I didn’t know any divers before I started my class. I am joining a dive club and hopefully will meet some more divers in the AOW class.

While I agree that most OW classes are "lacking," what they're lacking is the time to work on OW skills. For example, dropping enough weight and learning buoyancy well enough that the class can practice mask removal, air sharing, etc. while hovering instead of while sitting on the bottom. I suppose you could call this the integration of skills--and OW is just too short a course in most cases.

AOW shouldn't be the place to master OW, rather the place to learn new skills and integrate them into a stable OW skill set. In my opinion.

Regardless, you sound thoughtful and interested. Good to hear your thoughts.

I see you dove Tahiti & Moorea after OW. Nice!
Bryan

PS: Are you looking at a package deal for four specialties plus Stress & Rescue to get the SSI Advanced c-card, or an AOW course from another agency? Just curious.

Good thoughts, thanks.

Uh, I am doing the SSI AOW (night, drysuit, boat, navigation), then deep diving, then CPR / First Aid (React Right), then Stress & Rescue.

My card doesn’t matter. The fill guys aren’t really impressed by any of them…

 

[eponym]

You're welcome.

And sorry, I wasn't trying to imply anythng about cards, just wasn't aware of an SSI AOW course per se.

I found SSI's Stress & Rescue course very useful for self-evaluation, for thinking about the buddy relationship, and in the pre-dive gear-up.

Air consumption improves when you relax, and you relax as you get the experience. That sounds trite, but it is really that simple. Eventually you breathe slowly without even thinking about it. As a relaxation exercise, try visualizing your whole dive before even getting in the water.

And weight will drop as you relax, too. When I was able to exhale fully at the surface and keep exhaling to start down, I was surprised how much weight I could do without.

Bryan

 

[H2Andy]

Let me say this. My buoyancy sucks. My air consumption sucks (well, it is OK). I feel over weighted (though I am using less then recommended. There is a LONG way to go. Hopefully at 100 dives I'll start to feel like I'm a diver....

first, sounds like you're your own worst critic. while you
probably do have problems (we all do), they're probably
not as bad as you might think.

all these "problems" you mention are very common to new divers
AND THEY ARE ALL RELATED. it will probably take you about 50
dives (not 100) to feel comfortable in the water after tackling
these issues.

ok, bouyancy and over-weight first. the more
weight you carry, the more air you need in your BC to off-set
that weight, and the more drastic your changes in bouyancy
are going to be, plus you're gonna have to work harder to
lug all that weight around, which means you'll use more air.

so, for me, goal one would be:

(1) SHED THE WEIGHT

get whatever tank you will be using regularly
(probably aluminum), and get yourself to
a pool when the tank has about 250 psi. get geared up,
and start playing in the deep end. the goal is to find a
weight that will allow you to easily keep your depth from
about 15 feet to the surface with 250 psi in the tank. that's
what you weight yourself for (not for the beginning of the dive).
then multiply the total weight of yourself, gear, and
nearly-empty tank by .25 and you will get pretty close
to the weight you will need for salt water.
better yet, do the same process in salt water.

once you shed this weight, you will probably have trouble
sinking at the beginning of the dive, since you won't have all
that weight dragging you down.

in order to overcome this problem, you must:

(2) RELAX

at the beginning of the dive, take it easy. don't breathe hard
and deep. let the air out of the BC, EXHALE, and DONT
KICK. if you relax, you should be able to sink easily.
this comes with practice. beginners have a hard time sinking
with the minimum weight they really need, and thus end up woefully over-weighted just to sink.

now that you don't have so much weight to lug around,
you will find you can control your bouyancy much, much easier.

you won't have to work so hard, you will relax, and as a result,
your air consumption will get better too!

but you will really improve your air comsumption if you:

(3) BREATHE CALMLY AND SLOWLY

the pattern should be: exhale, inhale, pause. exhale, inhale, pause... and so on

don't "shut" your throat when you pause. leave your throat
pen so that air can escape freely. consciously breathe
calmly and slowly, pausing after you inhale, and you will
(a) use less air and (b) relax even more which will lead to
(c) you will use even less air.

try this and see how well it works.

 

[jbd]

Let me say this. My buoyancy sucks. My air consumption sucks (well, it is OK). I feel over weighted (though I am using less then recommended. There is a LONG way to go. Hopefully at 100 dives I'll start to feel like I'm a diver....

I doubt it will take you 100 dives. You are already taking a proactive approach to improving your diving. With proper coaching, focus and practice you will be truly surprised where you will be at 50 dives.

Getting six additional dives does count as "practice" in my book. (our AOW is 4 shore dives and 2 boat dives).

I don't consider this to be practice, in that you are focusing on new skills and new tasks. Will your AOW instructor require you to do any of the mask or regulator skills? Will you be asked to perform any OOA drills? Will any of these be done while maintaining neutral bouyancy? Of the various activities in the AOW course will you be evaluated on how well you maintain neutral bouyancy while performing other tasks. I have seen several people who when handed a compass can no longer maintain the established depth. For the deep dive, will you have an appropriate SAC rate to work with when you plan that dive? What about your buddy for that dive? Does he or she know what their SAC rate is so the dive can be properly planned? During a search and recovery dive, do you have the ability to be close to the bottom for a low viz search without stirring up silt. If the dive will include the use of a lift bag can you rig the item properly for the lift? While maintaining neutral bouyancy and not stirring up silt?

My point in all of this is that an AOW course should be just that---an advanced class with new knowledge and new skills to learn and master. Many of these skills are based on the students ability to dive with a fair degree of skill already.

I’m perfectly able to go out and shore dive and boat dive on my own. But I’ve found that “practice” does go a long way and having a “coach” to help usually accelerates the learning process. What is wrong with having someone experienced continue teaching you?

Indeed, having a "coach" or mentor can speed up the developement of skills as long as there is focus on the skills and critique for improvement. Taking a new class thogh is not the same as diving with a mentor who is there to help you practice skills you are trying to master. Its a whole different perspective.