opinions on DIR diving

[caverkevin]

at the lake

klj

 

[Rick Murchison]

Originally posted by maddiver
lucky Lamar was there......

But... but...Gasp... Lamar's not DIR!!!
Rick

 

[pipedope]

On the numerical hand signals. DIR devotees often wonder aloud why people don't instantly adopt something that is clearly superior as soon as they learn about it. The Navy hand signals are clearly superior, how long will it be before they are DIR?

The DIR system has a lot going for it, biggest thing being that it is a complete system. The fact that it is a complete system is also the biggest drawback as you really need to adopt the whole system or not, and that requires the participation of lots of other people including buddies, shops, dive boat operators etc..

As for getting stuck in the mud, that is a regular situation for me. I just call for the standby diver to bring down the jet nozzle and jet me out.

 

[Bob3]

There are big differences between PSDing (Public Safety Diving) and sport diving (including DIR style).
PSD work has much more in common with commercial diving and the gear requirements are likewise different.

Major differences include:

Buddy system: Your buddy is on the surface, he's called your tender. Having 2 divers in the water is a waste of manpower and can be a safety hazard in blackwater.

BC: A jacket style BC is more appropriate because a lot of time is spent on the surface.

FFMs: Full face masks are the norm because of contaminated water & the need for comms.

Long hose: No in water buddy, no need for extra hose to get fouled while crawling through tree branches, etc. Surface air is the exception when practical.

Tanks: Single tanks are normally used because of ease of handling. Deco diving is normally prohibited on scuba.

Pony/bailout: It's always nice to have a redundant air supply & it must be detachable in water.

The one item that PSDers seem to appreciate is the bungee on the second, so the next time you want to have a chat with the lads, use that as a starting point. Bungees are much nicer than scum balls, etc. & are much better at keeping the reg outta the mud.
The bungee shouldn't be zip tied to the mouthpiece to avoid stripping the whole mess off in case of a hard snag.

 

[landlocked]

Wow! is this emotional stuff or what! Are we all old enough to be dicussing this? Do your parents know?

But, seriously:

Originally posted by caverkevin
Why do some divers choose not to dive DIR?Kevin Jones

In an open water environment, I think that the DIR hose configuration in inferior. No resistance. I seriously considered changing. After some careful thought, I came to the conclusion that the DIR hose configuration only becomes a better option in an overhead environment. The reverse engineering in taking it back to open water really doesn't work. Think about it. If you want to discuss specifics as to why, I'm up for it.

I hope that directly addresses the question.

 

[landlocked]

I forgot that I was in the technical section. In which case my open water argument is moot.

 

[detroit diver]

Landlocked,

Okay, I'm listening. Why?

Although this is the Tech section, we dive in open water. I'd like to know your reasoning.

 

[landlocked]

[In an open water environment, I think that the DIR hose configuration is inferior.]

Originally posted by detroit diver
Landlocked,

Okay, I'm listening. Why?

Although this is the Tech section, we dive in open water. I'd like to know your reasoning.

Background: There are some false arguments.

1) No agency teaches you to drag the octopus in the dirt. It is to be securly attached near the right hip.
2) Although I carry an octopus, I was taught that you always donate from the mouth. Then you reach for the octopus.
(That is probably just my instructor rather than the agency. SSI?)
3) A normal length octopus does not create an undue entaglement hazzard in open water. It only becomes such when you are in an overhead environment and you need to have a 7 foot hose. The logic behind the DIR config becomes very clear at that point.

Advantages:
1) The OOA person has an option. He can, as is expected, give an out of air signal and recieve the air straight from your mouth or, if it is more convient, simply reach over and help himself to the octopus. Options are always nice.
2) If the OOA person panics and you can't see them coming (it has happened) they are as likely to grab the octo from the hip as the primary from your mouth.
3) Consistency in cofigurations. Most rec. divers are so configured and accordingly know what to expect in your gear. (That sounds familiar.)

Disadvantages:
1) The oct is further from your mouth.

Conclusion: By a narrow margin, the octo has it. The DIR hose is obviously better in an overhead environment. If a kit is so rigged it would seem foolish to change everytime a tech diver did some open water diving. Similarly, it would seem illogical to me, to use a DIR hose config if your diving is strictly recreational.

There it is. Go ahead, beat me vigorously.

:whack:

 

[maddiver]

First you seem to be missing the point of keeping it simple and not changing things very much as you move from overhead to ow. As a diver you create muscle memory that is not easily overcome by thought especially when your brain is oxygen starved ( this applies to ow even if we never consider cave or tech). Having fluid reactions is key to survivial and performance under intense ow emergency conditions.

I take issue with Background#3 as it depends on what ow dive environ you are referring to. Sure the kitchen sink wouldn't be an entanglement hazzard on bluewater dive. Lets say we took a stratified random sample of divers from dive boats across the world (enought to make it statistically significant) and videoed the whole process. How many dangling regulators that have come loose unnoticed. How many accidental snags? how many subtile but importantly different equipment configurations (also a rebutal of your Advantages #3)


Options during emergencies have been noted to create additonal task loading and provide a vehicle for incorrect decision making. This should be so simple you do not have to think about it.

The long hose in your mouth is both more visible and is also on top of your back up. So for me in an emergency to go for your back up on a necklace I would have to go under and through the one in your mouth....not likely.

I used to use an air 2 as a DM and actually had to bring a guy up by donating my primary and using that crappy thing from 75 ft and I wish that a) I had had enough hose to give the guy a little extra slack like a couple of feet and I on that fit nicely in my mouth and didn't contort my head or fall out when he thrashed me not wanting to do a slight deco stop.

Through personal study of decompression theory, I do not believe in a emergency swimming ascent. This is partially due to the DIR integrated philosophy of a buddy team and standardized practices (without those then I can see the argument for esa's as you cannot count on a standard buddy reaction....if they are even around SOB (same ocean buddy)

My retort has nothing to do with 'beating you vigorously', but everything to do with a disagreement in principal. You are entitled to believe and dive as you wish.

Originally posted by landlocked



Background: There are some false arguments.

3) A normal length octopus does not create an undue entaglement hazzard in open water. It only becomes such when you are in an overhead environment and you need to have a 7 foot hose. The logic behind the DIR config becomes very clear at that point.

Advantages:
1) The OOA person has an option. He can, as is expected, give an out of air signal and recieve the air straight from your mouth or, if it is more convient, simply reach over and help himself to the octopus. Options are always nice.
2) If the OOA person panics and you can't see them coming (it has happened) they are as likely to grab the octo from the hip as the primary from your mouth.
3) Consistency in cofigurations. Most rec. divers are so configured and accordingly know what to expect in your gear. (That sounds familiar.)

Disadvantages:
1) The oct is further from your mouth.

Conclusion: By a narrow margin, the octo has it. The DIR hose is obviously better in an overhead environment. If a kit is so rigged it would seem foolish to change everytime a tech diver did some open water diving. Similarly, it would seem illogical to me, to use a DIR hose config if your diving is strictly recreational.

There it is. Go ahead, beat me vigorously.

:whack:

 

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by landlocked



Background: There are some false arguments.

1) No agency teaches you to drag the octopus in the dirt. It is to be securly attached near the right hip.
2) Although I carry an octopus, I was taught that you always donate from the mouth. Then you reach for the octopus.
(That is probably just my instructor rather than the agency. SSI?)
3) A normal length octopus does not create an undue entaglement hazzard in open water. It only becomes such when you are in an overhead environment and you need to have a 7 foot hose. The logic behind the DIR config becomes very clear at that point.

Advantages:
1) The OOA person has an option. He can, as is expected, give an out of air signal and recieve the air straight from your mouth or, if it is more convient, simply reach over and help himself to the octopus. Options are always nice.
2) If the OOA person panics and you can't see them coming (it has happened) they are as likely to grab the octo from the hip as the primary from your mouth.
3) Consistency in cofigurations. Most rec. divers are so configured and accordingly know what to expect in your gear. (That sounds familiar.)

Disadvantages:
1) The oct is further from your mouth.

Conclusion: By a narrow margin, the octo has it. The DIR hose is obviously better in an overhead environment. If a kit is so rigged it would seem foolish to change everytime a tech diver did some open water diving. Similarly, it would seem illogical to me, to use a DIR hose config if your diving is strictly recreational.

There it is. Go ahead, beat me vigorously.

:whack:

I'm not into S&M (well not on this board anyway!), so I'll do it gently!!

The first three points I won't argue with-you're absolutely correct.

But:

Advantages:

1. If the octo isn't working, he's got a problem. If he takes your working reg (after all, you're breathing from it), he knows it works. From all I've read, this is where most OOA divers go for-they simply know it's going to give them air.

2. Not from all the posts and articles I've read. They want something that works.

3. No arguement. That's one of the reasons DIR divers dive together. The problem with "everyone's equipment is the same" is just that it's not. Figure in the Air2 devices and the iteration thereof, and you've got a zillion different styles. Is the octo in the pocket? On the inflator? At the hip?

Disadvantages:

1. Yep, I agree!! (I know you're surprised!).

After all that, my biggest problem with the octo is the length. It's far too short to control an OOA situation effectively-WITHOUT ANY OPTIONS. With a long hose-5 ft, 7 ft, your choice (I use 7ft everywhere), you've got options. Bring a controllled diver in close, get a flailing out of control diver a little farther away. Whatever's right for the situation, you can control it with a long hose. You've got no choices with the standard octo setup. And that piece of crap AIR2 and its cousins is a total joke. I want to see someone control their bouyancy while breathing off that thing while donating their reg for air. And what happens when the s**t hits the fan and you've got a runaway inflator? You're screwed.

Sorry for that last rant. I find that piece of junk an insult to the industry and most people intelligence.

Anyway, that's how I see it, FWIW.

Dive safe,

Jack