detroit diver
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Why?
How's that?
Why not? What if what they're teaching is wrong?
opinions on DIR diving
- Thread starter caverkevin
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Why?
How's that?
Why not? What if what they're teaching is wrong?
Kevin-
You and I both know the answer to this one. We saw it day in and day out at Ginnie. WE had some 'questionable' gear configs and theories ourselves that got hammered out due to the conditions and the mentorship that the environment provided.
Also we saw cave and tech diving go mainstream and become the 'brass ring' that many divers focused on---whereas many new ow students wanted to become instructors the focus somewhat shifted to the 'tough guy' tech diver image. We also saw the fast track professionals who thought they were really smart and didn't need the experience, just a boat load of cash, a c-card and a goodyear blimp of an attitude. Who was that guy that sat behind a desk everyday from NY and thought he could outpace a guy who went cave diving five days a week to the henkle?
Oh yeah perfect example, infamous DIVER X, tylers student that bought the dpv and got the free annual pass deal. First dive scootered to henkle and almost died on the return....lucky Lamar was there......another 'pay to play' character.
So what you are dealing with is 3/4 attitude and a mix of that which you alluded to and a few other points. Ego threat (attitude) is the worst thing in technical diving. So in that regard my friend you are fighting an uphill battle. The worst are the PHD's who are 'insulted' learning from anyone else...they already know it all.
My suggestion is this. Get in the water with them. The difference will be clear and the advantages unarguable. You'll catch a lot of flack from the internet diver but then what do they know about diving so much your stuff never has a chance to dry out, before and after work each day...living eating and breathing cave and technical diving. Most of these jokers think Eagles Nest is a National Geo Bird Special. So keep with it be vigilant and never give up. There still are those of us out there that know the score.
Fellow tank monkie and retired cave police officer
You and I both know the answer to this one. We saw it day in and day out at Ginnie. WE had some 'questionable' gear configs and theories ourselves that got hammered out due to the conditions and the mentorship that the environment provided.
Also we saw cave and tech diving go mainstream and become the 'brass ring' that many divers focused on---whereas many new ow students wanted to become instructors the focus somewhat shifted to the 'tough guy' tech diver image. We also saw the fast track professionals who thought they were really smart and didn't need the experience, just a boat load of cash, a c-card and a goodyear blimp of an attitude. Who was that guy that sat behind a desk everyday from NY and thought he could outpace a guy who went cave diving five days a week to the henkle?
Oh yeah perfect example, infamous DIVER X, tylers student that bought the dpv and got the free annual pass deal. First dive scootered to henkle and almost died on the return....lucky Lamar was there......another 'pay to play' character.
So what you are dealing with is 3/4 attitude and a mix of that which you alluded to and a few other points. Ego threat (attitude) is the worst thing in technical diving. So in that regard my friend you are fighting an uphill battle. The worst are the PHD's who are 'insulted' learning from anyone else...they already know it all.
My suggestion is this. Get in the water with them. The difference will be clear and the advantages unarguable. You'll catch a lot of flack from the internet diver but then what do they know about diving so much your stuff never has a chance to dry out, before and after work each day...living eating and breathing cave and technical diving. Most of these jokers think Eagles Nest is a National Geo Bird Special. So keep with it be vigilant and never give up. There still are those of us out there that know the score.
Fellow tank monkie and retired cave police officer
Originally posted by caverkevin
First-thanks to all for taking the time to respond
I have seen many safty issues that border from kinda acceptable to insanity. Examples, solo diving, ending dives <100psi at one end to using a biomarine CCR on a public safty dive team training dive at the other extreme. When I try to present DIR, as a broad based appoach to better and safer diving, people get mad and will not even discuss the topic.
I know human nature will keep some people from ever changing. I know I didn't want to change at first, because my system was working, so why change it. Glad I did! Thanks to everyone for the responces annd helping me.
KLJ
Let me take a stab at this without the extreme flamming.
1) I was trained through padi all the way up to rescue diver. Their teaching is very promotional toward BC. They like things done their way.
2) The information is not as available. To the diver that flys down to the Carribean and dives in 100' vis, they are happy for what works.
3) Since DIR is not taugh from the beginning, people are going to go with what they know
4) Recreational divers do not spend the time reading about deco theory, bubble formation and dci. They just like to dive in clear water and kick around.
5) Many divers, like myself, buy all the gear they need before or directly after their open water class. I was not happy to find after spending my savings on gear, that there is a better setup.
6) To go along with point 5, The money is also a problem. I am only a college student without the ability to get a job. Money is very tight for me. I do what little side work I can to earn some cash. I thougt I was doing great by saving up, and buying my bc and reg. I did the whole ebay thing too. I spent almost everything I had on dive gear, then I learned there is different way.
7) Even in the tech diving community, if you have a parnter with a ranger or other "hi tech" BC, then it eliminates you going to the DIR setup b/c of your partner.
8) The attitude is more is better when it comes to marketing. If a good salesman at a LDS gets ahold of you, you can walk out with a bunch of crap that you will never need. LDS promote the "tech bc" b/c it has 25 d rings on it, ajustable lumbar, integrated weights, trim weights, heavy nylon, and whatever gizmos they now sell. More crap sold = more money
9) Looks are a big deal, though pointless at that. I hear many divers when I try to explain my bp/wing setup, they just turn the other way b/c of how it looks. I may look uncomfortable, like nothing is there, it is too redundant, or whatever excuse I have heard.
These are just my opinions: I am only a rec diver right now, b/c I do not have the experience nor the training to be called a tech diver. I have been reading alot about dci, bubble formation, deep diving, bubble solution, gas mixing, and deco theory. I am very eager to learn anything that anydiver is willing to share. I will never belittle a diver for something that works for them. I have learned to keep an open mind. I used to dive the pseudo tech BC, but i have my Fred T plate on order, and a halcyon wing waiting to be mounted. I am taking classes on deep diving, gas blending, and general tech issues.
I have yet to go to the DIR setup b/c of the money issues right now. I am scraping by to pay for rent, and classes, so scuba comes when it can. I will be using the DIR setup soon, or at least most of it.
I do not mean to degrade the BC users and if I have I am sorry. I used the BC to BP as an example because that is what i have personal experience with. I do not have the 7' hose b/c it is not in my budget at the moment (thanks Fred Taggie). I know that a 7' hose and a BP does not make someone DIR, but rather the attitude and need to strive for perfection does along with gear config.
WHY DO PEOPLE NOT USE DIR? SAME AS WHY PEOPLE DO
People are entitled to their opinions, and each has their own expierences.....some like coffee, tea or hot cocoa. some are christians, muslims, or jewish, or some are for the federation while others are keen on assimilation.
TO EACH HIS OWN>>>WHETHER WRONG OR RIGHT!
1) I was trained through padi all the way up to rescue diver. Their teaching is very promotional toward BC. They like things done their way.
2) The information is not as available. To the diver that flys down to the Carribean and dives in 100' vis, they are happy for what works.
3) Since DIR is not taugh from the beginning, people are going to go with what they know
4) Recreational divers do not spend the time reading about deco theory, bubble formation and dci. They just like to dive in clear water and kick around.
5) Many divers, like myself, buy all the gear they need before or directly after their open water class. I was not happy to find after spending my savings on gear, that there is a better setup.
6) To go along with point 5, The money is also a problem. I am only a college student without the ability to get a job. Money is very tight for me. I do what little side work I can to earn some cash. I thougt I was doing great by saving up, and buying my bc and reg. I did the whole ebay thing too. I spent almost everything I had on dive gear, then I learned there is different way.
7) Even in the tech diving community, if you have a parnter with a ranger or other "hi tech" BC, then it eliminates you going to the DIR setup b/c of your partner.
8) The attitude is more is better when it comes to marketing. If a good salesman at a LDS gets ahold of you, you can walk out with a bunch of crap that you will never need. LDS promote the "tech bc" b/c it has 25 d rings on it, ajustable lumbar, integrated weights, trim weights, heavy nylon, and whatever gizmos they now sell. More crap sold = more money
9) Looks are a big deal, though pointless at that. I hear many divers when I try to explain my bp/wing setup, they just turn the other way b/c of how it looks. I may look uncomfortable, like nothing is there, it is too redundant, or whatever excuse I have heard.
These are just my opinions: I am only a rec diver right now, b/c I do not have the experience nor the training to be called a tech diver. I have been reading alot about dci, bubble formation, deep diving, bubble solution, gas mixing, and deco theory. I am very eager to learn anything that anydiver is willing to share. I will never belittle a diver for something that works for them. I have learned to keep an open mind. I used to dive the pseudo tech BC, but i have my Fred T plate on order, and a halcyon wing waiting to be mounted. I am taking classes on deep diving, gas blending, and general tech issues.
I have yet to go to the DIR setup b/c of the money issues right now. I am scraping by to pay for rent, and classes, so scuba comes when it can. I will be using the DIR setup soon, or at least most of it.
I do not mean to degrade the BC users and if I have I am sorry. I used the BC to BP as an example because that is what i have personal experience with. I do not have the 7' hose b/c it is not in my budget at the moment (thanks Fred Taggie). I know that a 7' hose and a BP does not make someone DIR, but rather the attitude and need to strive for perfection does along with gear config.
WHY DO PEOPLE NOT USE DIR? SAME AS WHY PEOPLE DO
People are entitled to their opinions, and each has their own expierences.....some like coffee, tea or hot cocoa. some are christians, muslims, or jewish, or some are for the federation while others are keen on assimilation.
TO EACH HIS OWN>>>WHETHER WRONG OR RIGHT!
Hey UP,
Answering serious questions with one word answers does not indicate any interest in substantial technical discussions.
Answering serious questions with one word answers does not indicate any interest in substantial technical discussions.
o2diver
Guest
I find DIR to limiting. I want to be able to dive with whom I want to and not with who an agency says I have to to be part of the cult. I do like most of their ideas and do use them. BUT I think that if everyone believed in the DIS i would make more sense.
(DIS Doing it Safely)
O2DIVER
(DIS Doing it Safely)
O2DIVER
Spectre
Contributor
While there is plenty of good practices introduced with DIR, many that I'm sure I'll incorporate over time, it's the attitude that I take issue with. I prefer to be treated with respect and intellegence. To go with the Borg reference, it's a warrior vs. a salesmen.
My issue is the: "You will be assimilated, resistance is futile", vs.
"Hi, would you like to be assimiliated? Here's what we have to offer and if you don't like it, that's fine".
My issue is the: "You will be assimilated, resistance is futile", vs.
"Hi, would you like to be assimiliated? Here's what we have to offer and if you don't like it, that's fine".
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Personally I think DIR is the best thing to come into diving is a long long time. While I am not completely DIR compliant as far as my diving practices, I do my best to follow the framework. I recently had the opportunity (need) to replace almost all of my equipment and after long study I decided the DIR configuration was superior so that's what I went with. I'm quite pleased with it.
As far as the training, I understand it's great but I personally have issues with a few of the GUE standards (I smoke a little so they say I'm not qualified to get in a pool which I think is BS). I think they are doing a great service for the most part.
Tom
As far as the training, I understand it's great but I personally have issues with a few of the GUE standards (I smoke a little so they say I'm not qualified to get in a pool which I think is BS). I think they are doing a great service for the most part.
Tom
Hey Michael,
I checked back through the thread and I think you might be referring to *wetnotes*... correct?
I guess I'm not sufficeintly far enough along to have run into the official DIR hand signals...
What we rely on to communicate numbers (other than the basic stuff with fingers) is wetnotes. And I do carry a small knife so that I can sharpen my pencil...
I guess I don't see not having a large hand signal vocabulary as being a reason to reject DIR... actually we do most of our communicating with out light beams... and we can even *draw* numbers on the bottom with them...
(When I say we I mean Shane and I... not DIR in general)
Classic Jeff How about:
"Hi, would you like to be assimiliated? Here's what we have to offer and if you don't like it, that's fine...you will be assimilated, resistance is futile".
{I hope you know I'm playing along with the joke when I say "you will be assimilated"}
Great post Jeep... cogent.
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