Rather than being concerned with reducing what it costs, make it worth what you (currently) pay.......
Open Source Instruction for Entry Level Scuba
- Thread starter awetmedic
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OP
awetmedic
Contributor
Hi thanks for the information. I am hoping to find input from all over the world eventually, the information from Australia was great. By presenting a smorgasbord of information to my students students, I am hoping they will learn of the mistakes of the past, the differences in different agencies and countries all over the world. The internet has shrunk the world. I have told the instructors that are helping me that due to the fierce protectionism of the scuba industry, that no logos or mention of the 3 agencies that are represented by the staff can appear at this nonprofit. Students will be told (these board will be available to them) that they will be spit on by the dive industry, told that their training is no good and they are not worthy enough to go into a diveshops and that their cards will never be any good anywhere. I had this same attitude while working at Captain Dons Habitat in Bonaire. A couple from South America came up to dive that only had passed a course from a small scuba club. Our procedure for unverified international divers was and exam, evaluation and check-out dive. This small club required the first 6 months to be nothing but swimming, snorkeling, first-aid, CPR, lifeguarding, marine biology and more. The second 6 months was scuba. I had originally told these people that without a card they could not dive, boy was I ever wrong! A C-card from a major agency does not make a diver any smarter or an instructor any better. It is what that diver knows and can do. This was re-inforced when I was living in Grand Cayman and certifying the locals as divemasters. They had learned things from all over the world, and their is definitely more ways to skin a cat. So yes, the one thing I will be incredibly careful of, is to never let that logos, names, books or any mention of any agency be mentioned that any of our instructors belong to.
OP
awetmedic
Contributor
I can definitely agree with your post 100%. Courses have got too short, I have thought this for a very long time especially after one very major agency set in motion the events that would later form the RSTC and that agency would have to amend its course. One of the advantages that we have is unlimited pool time for our students, and by supplementing this with the worlds best and worst scuba knowledge from all over the world, students can see what works and what dosn't and how programs have evolved. Since money has been taken out of the equation for our students, there is also no need to rush them through a course. What we have been doing after the students have learned and mastered the skills and checked off by the instructor, is to have the students teach them to the studens who already know the skills and have had them checked off. Nothing re-inforces as skills as being told you have to teach one! This extra practice would be way out of bounds for all agencies! Thanks for your post.
OP
awetmedic
Contributor
Well, if money was the issue, that would make sense.
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I'm not understanding something here ... you're proposing to offer six hours of online training for less than $100. What about in-water training? Reading about scuba diving does not a scuba diver make ... one must get into the water. How are you proposing to cover the costs for the in-water training?
Seems to me there's a guy who's been selling "universal" online training for some years now, with a referral to an agency instructor for the in-water part of his class ... and his students are having a hard time finding instructors for the latter who will accept the training they've already paid for as legitimate. While I won't out-of-hand dismiss the merits of what you're attempting, have you thought through what happens to the student who has purchased your product?
There are many areas where I believe our current training model can be improved. An open-source, online academic curriculum can have some merit ... if it's done properly and meets the current standards of knowledge required for entry-level scuba diving. However, there's far more to training someone to dive safely than just the academics ... otherwise people could train themselves how to dive simply by spending time on ScubaBoard and asking questions.
Sooner or later, the students have to get in the water and train their body to perform in an environment none of us were ever designed for. Until you've addressed that process, to my concern you haven't really thought through what you're trying to do ...
EDIT: I see you were typing as I was and mentioned "unlimited pool time". I'm curious how this is supposed to work. Who's covering the cost for this? Pools aren't free ... neither are the instructors who would be putting in their time.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Seems to me there's a guy who's been selling "universal" online training for some years now, with a referral to an agency instructor for the in-water part of his class ... and his students are having a hard time finding instructors for the latter who will accept the training they've already paid for as legitimate. While I won't out-of-hand dismiss the merits of what you're attempting, have you thought through what happens to the student who has purchased your product?
There are many areas where I believe our current training model can be improved. An open-source, online academic curriculum can have some merit ... if it's done properly and meets the current standards of knowledge required for entry-level scuba diving. However, there's far more to training someone to dive safely than just the academics ... otherwise people could train themselves how to dive simply by spending time on ScubaBoard and asking questions.
Sooner or later, the students have to get in the water and train their body to perform in an environment none of us were ever designed for. Until you've addressed that process, to my concern you haven't really thought through what you're trying to do ...
EDIT: I see you were typing as I was and mentioned "unlimited pool time". I'm curious how this is supposed to work. Who's covering the cost for this? Pools aren't free ... neither are the instructors who would be putting in their time.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
OP
awetmedic
Contributor
Your question of "why", is really at the crux of the matter. Why give up on the agencies the our instructors have been with for so long? Why issue a certification card that will be rejected, spit on and have our divers told they are worthless and that they are not even allowed near a "real" dive business? Why rely on (our instructors are insured but they have been told no agency logos, books or mention of them at our facility) our facility insurance for our nonprofit? With one of the major agencies that we have instructors with, they will not allow for extra time and material to be taught for example. One agency does, and we would have no problem teaching their courses and their methods as it allows for instructor input, however, we are getting some great information from around the world and we want our students to know that it is not the branding of an agency that makes them a good diver, it is what they know and can do and that their are many different sources of information out there. The internet has made the world a much smaller place. McDonalds is the worlds largest restaurant chain, do they have the best food or the most talented chefs? Is that where you go for fine dining?
OP
awetmedic
Contributor
We also have a structure for our volunteers where they can get their training for free. And there is no limit to the classroom or pool time that they get. Money or time is not an issue with our training, the equation of making a profit has been taken away and so cutting corners or rushing is not an issue. If you see the profile picture, you will see an underwater vehicle that the discovery channel had put in our pool. Our pool costs are already covered as teaching scuba is not our mission, it is simply a reward activity for volunteers. I can not see ourselves ever charging for online instruction from anyone. Where they get their certification and how they do it is up to them, the sports that we provide our students is up to us. Our students have seen all the skill mistakes in the training material and methods that a major agency has in their videos and they laugh at the elitist attitude. They know full well that they might get some free or low cost diving with us as a reward for volunteer time and that they may have to take an experienced diver course, resort course or other training to get a C-card that won't be spit on and ridiculed. There is an element of adventure and pride in being the underdog.
Personally, I think you're being incredibly naive. One thing we don't need is another training agency, even your non-agency agency. Do you honestly think you can provide adequate scuba instruction and a certification others will recognize for next to nothing? If you do, IMO you're fooling yourself.
DennisS
Contributor
I'm having trouble seeing the advantages of getting certified by some unknown agency vs a known agency using online ed for the "classroom" part.
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Sadly, the world is moving steadily in the opposite direction. By far the largest diver training organisations in the world used to be BSAC and CMAS, both of which were basically run as clubs on a not-for-profit basis.
Then along came PADI and the rest, and the traffic has been one way since then. Profit generating enterprise beats earnest amateur toil every time (except for Mozilla Firefox). Open source scuba instruction? Nice idea, but impractical in a world that is increasingly behoven to regulations, standards and recognition of official certification.
The truth is, love 'em or hate 'em, the world likes what the big agencies are selling and the price they are selling it at. That is why they are so successful (using that term in a comparitive sense only).
Then along came PADI and the rest, and the traffic has been one way since then. Profit generating enterprise beats earnest amateur toil every time (except for Mozilla Firefox). Open source scuba instruction? Nice idea, but impractical in a world that is increasingly behoven to regulations, standards and recognition of official certification.
The truth is, love 'em or hate 'em, the world likes what the big agencies are selling and the price they are selling it at. That is why they are so successful (using that term in a comparitive sense only).
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