Once a DM always liable

[Christi]

OT somewhat, but what does DM insurance cost in the US?
(This is starting to sound like the thing to do is become a DM candidate, but never bother pushing the final paperwork )

$300ish USD...double that for Instructors

If you want to become a DM to work as a DM, then it's a great idea to go the professional route...or if you want to go on to become an instructor, of course you have to become a DM first. However, if you just want to become a DM to have that card, think hard about it.

Don't go overboard with fear of a lawsuit though. It's just that IF you decide to become a DM, you need to fully understand your role as a DM and understand the associated risks/libiliity exposure, etc. A point that needs to be made clear here is that once you become a DM, your EXPOSURE to liability definitely increases, particularly in a situation where you are working with student divers, or leading certified divers. It does not automatically make you liable JUST because you are a DM and you may have happened to be in the vicinity or on the same boat. The actual duty of care will be established by a judge in the event of an accident, etc. as H2Andy explained.

The difference in the "DM hand holding" thread is that the original poster was looking for a local DM to show him around, be his buddy, etc. He wanted to know if compensating him with free tanks and the boat ride would be sufficient. The free tanks and free boat ride would be considered compensation and an implied contract. Of course, the original poster in this thread later decided the buddy didn't need to be a DM, just someone with knowledge of the local area. Ijust used this as an example.

 

[Robert Thompson]

And again I ask, do you actually know of a DM that has been sued for just being on the boat?

 

[Jeff Toorish]

I know this if off topic, but the coffee you probably serve is around 135 to 140 degrees fahrenheit, whereas McDonalds was serving it's coffee around 185 degrees as a matter of enforced policy. In the past 10 years prior to the lawsuit, their coffee had injured at least 700 other customers, some of whom had suffered 3rd degree burns similar to those of the 79 year old lady that sued them. The lady initially asked McDonalds for $20,000 to cover her medical bills (she was uninsured), but since McDonlads refused she sued and they had to shell out about $600,000 in the end - most of it was in punitive damages to convince them to stop selling 185 degree coffee. Personally I think it serves them right unless there was a big warning on the cup to say the coffee was hazardous until allowed to cool.

It is so refreshing to hear someone else who knows about this. Everytime a lawsuit discussion comes up, someone mentions that damn McDonald's suit. In that case, as you note, McDonalds was clearly negligent, and therefore, they paid.

Sorry for the off topic post.

Safe Diving.

Jeff

 

[Christi]

And again I ask, do you actually know of a DM that has been sued for just being on the boat?

As I said in the other thread, off the top of my head NO...

You're missing the point though...I never said a DM is liable just for being on the boat.

The point is that as a DM you have much more exposure to being sued. Anyone can be sued at any time really...you don't have to do anything wrong.

However, the burden of proof would lie with the Plaintiff to prove that the DM had a duty of care to the injured party and that they duty was breached...as I said in the other thread, and as H2Andy has said in this thread more than once.

In the case of the local DM going along for a "free" ride, a judge would most likely find a duty of care in that case if there were an accident. Read H2Andy's post in this thred, posts #3, #10, #17, #18 since he was being asked to go along as a local "expert."

I'm not going to keep trying to explain this. I have explained it as much as I can without beating a dead horse. If you really want to understand the liability issues regarding diving professionals, I encourage you to read "The Law and the Diving Professionnal" or call and talk to an attorney with one of the agencies that insures professional divers.

 

[Christi]

It is so refreshing to hear someone else who knows about this. Everytime a lawsuit discussion comes up, someone mentions that damn McDonald's suit. In that case, as you note, McDonalds was clearly negligent, and therefore, they paid.

Sorry for the off topic post.

Safe Diving.

Jeff

DITTO! I've read the entire case, including the appeal and the final judgment. Very few people know/understand whae cas wa REALLY about. They only believe the distorted views of what they see in the media that an old woman sued because she spilled hot coffee on her...there was sooo much more to it than that! Isn't there always?

 

[diverbrian]

OT somewhat, but what does DM insurance cost in the US?
(This is starting to sound like the thing to do is become a DM candidate, but never bother pushing the final paperwork )

Pretty much, Christi is echoing my sentiments. I am not paranoid about getting sued. Seeing as I lead trips on my own (and make sure that I am not compensated to keep things fair to the divers that go with me) and happen to be a dive pro, I am often informed by the instructors at my shop that I am not concerned enough about it. I am acutely aware of the exposure issue. Would it prevent me from doing what is right and helping someone in trouble? NO!!!!

But as a DiveCon, I can't "officially" work outside the shop and the dive pro insurance is kept on a blanket policy at the shop. So I am not charged for it at all. That is a good thing, as I am active, but the shop really only has a use for the instructors so I would be kept idle most of the time if I tried to work.

 

[gangrel441]

$300ish USD...double that for Instructors.

I would say compared to what most of us spend on diving in a year, $300 is a drop in the bucket. If you plan to go DM, isn't peace of mind worth $300?

If you want to become a DM to work as a DM, then it's a great idea to go the professional route...or if you want to go on to become an instructor, of course you have to become a DM first. However, if you just want to become a DM to have that card, think hard about it.

I am seriously considering DM training in the near future, and recently found the instructor I want to do it with. While I will probably go on to instruct someday, and I enjoy assisting other divers, my primary reason for doing DM training at this point is to gain the more in-depth education on decompression theory and diving physiology. My motives are primarily bettering myself as a diver, and secondarily to assist others. It seems the two go hand in hand.

 

[DiveGolfSki]

Interesting. I got certified as a DM by PADI in 1978 by going through the requirements back then (# of dives, deep dive, CPR, night dives, search & recovery, etc.) and got my cool C-Card (the old style) but choose not to opt for the insurance nor the professional route. PADI becomes huge and decides, unilaterally, that all previous DM certifications are not official since they're not part of their "professional" career route.

NOW, a DM will be liable just because he's around during an incident? Sounds strange to me.

 

[gjmmotors]

The insurance is a good thing. Just be sure not to do anythign against procedure or standards that would cause the ins company to no longer cover you. In my eyes the insurance company and your certifiying agency would be the first ones to throw you under the bus.

I have yet to see a case about a DM or Inst getting successfully sued just for being on the same boat when some moron decided to tempt darwin. Sure suits have been filed, but most are thrown out.

I would say compared to what most of us spend on diving in a year, $300 is a drop in the bucket. If you plan to go DM, isn't peace of mind worth $300?

 

[Christi]

NOW, a DM will be liable just because he's around during an incident? Sounds strange to me.

NO, you're not reading thoroughly. Read through Andy's and my posts again.