On Verge Of Panic!!!

[gndpdr]

i wonder where the liability would of landed had this become a body recovery dive

 

[OnceLoyal]

First off I think it is pretty sad that a mod would have to come in and clean up a thread like this. Shows the amount of - well I won't say or he will be cleaning me up-

Not trying to be critical but I have a lot of questions about what you did.

I have been trained to thumb a dive if you are congested. I am surprised that a DM would have condoned a dive of this level much less accompany you. Let alone the fact that he knew you had what sounds like some pretty severe congestion. At least that how I was trained. Looking back do you think you should have thumbed the dive?

You are AOW with <24 dives? WOW, I have only a few dives more than you and don't have that Certification. I am still trying to be efficient with the tasks required for a 60' dive. I am not ready to go further than that or to seek training to do that until I am completely comfortable with the training I have received to this point. I guess you must be a natural in the water. What abilities do you have that made your decision to make a dive of this difficulty?

140 fsw, Isn't that beyond your certification level? I thought that would take a Tech certification to even think about a dive to that depth. Do you think that narcosis could have played a role in your feeling of panic? Though I have limited information regarding this, what I have been taught is that Narcosis is very possible and can play a role in the situation you describe for panic. Doesn't 140' require some Deco planning? Doesn't it also require some fairly extensive gas planning? A quick glace at some tables that are on my watch band say 10 min NDL for a 140' dive. Does this type of dive require some sort of surface support for possible complications? Was there any kind of surface support in place?

What was the water temp at 140'? Was a shorty enough thermal protection? Isn't it normal to have a full suit on for wreck diving to avoid being injured from cuts, abrasions and attacks from stinging critters? Do you think water temp or vis played a role in your panic?

I am just curious about the whole thing. I just wonder if after having done this you think you were actually prepared and properly trained to take on a dive with the technical aspects that are involved. I am PADI certified and wonder if NAUI training is more extensive.

This is the stuff I was more or less looking for. I will try to answer everything the best I can.

As stated before I always have congestion problems. Should I have thumbed the dive? Well, to be honest no, or hmmm maybe. I am not sure. I always heard that reverse blockage is very rare. I thought if I was ok on he descent that the rest of the dive would be fine. This is what I used to judge wether or not the dive should continue. I also told the DM this before I went in and told him a possible ascent would take place. On more shallow dives I never experienced any problems.

Do I think I am ready for a dive like this? At this point no. I was actually nervous about the dive before hand. I never really felt confident with my last portion of training. I've just been told that I worry too much. Which is odd for me because I am a confident, but never cocky and should've trusted my gut instinct, which would be to get more training until I feel comfortable. I would like to say I am a natural in the water. I learned to swim at 2 1/2 - 3 years old by being thrown into a pool. I did all the highschool swim team and blah blah. I am in the water probably 3-4 times per week. Not scuba, but just to show I feel very natural in the water. I guess I felt somewhat secure with the DM that was present.

Narcosis and panic...hmmmm, well I don't believe I suffered any conditions of, and before I got to the upper deck I had already calmed myself so I would want to say no. Good question though and you have me thinking. I think the panic was just a combo of the snag and the pain of someone jamming a knife into my forehead and me not being able to correct the situation immediately.

As for being in a shorty I think it was very ignorant on my part and everyone else that went, especially considering the place was overwhelmed with fire breathing worms in a tight location!!! I will be honest. I am not sure about the temp. I did not feel uncomfortable at all, but considering what I was going through I don't think I would have. I did not have my computer on me, I was only keeping track in my head of our times, descent rates, and Air incase I had to head back up.

All in all no I don't think I was ready for a dive like this. I am actually diving tomorrow off Ft. Lauderdale and talked my origional inst. to join me to discuss aditional training on going deep.

We did have a bottle at 30ft. Support on surface, but no O2 or anything that I can rememeber.

Feel free to ask This helps me relive things in my head. I am trying to learn everything I can from this experience.

 

[H2O Gal]

Once loyal-
Thanks for sharing this with us. It took guts--after I read your original post all I could think was "Let the flames begin..."
I like to think the purpose of this part of the SB forum is for us all to learn what can happen as we participate in this sport we love so dearly but can be deadly. We will not learn anything by pointing fingers and assigning blame, and original posters won't want to share their "near misses and lessons learned" if they are afraid they will be personally attacked when they tell their story. I learned a lot by reading yours, and hope you can solve your sinus problems for future dives.

 

[rockjock3]

This med usually lasts me for -8-12 hours. Maybe at that depth for some odd reason it stopped working. A deep dive at this depth a required dive for my Advanced OW cert.??? At least I thought it was. I was just merely stating that a wreck and this should'nt have been combined in my situation. IMO the snagging was mostly related to me not being properly dressed for this event (no gloves to help control myself going through narrow corridor and the pain I think wasn't helping my concentration level.
I can see where you are coming from to an extent. I've done the class work and ground drills on narcosis. I don't think anyone can properly prepare themselves for something like that. What you have to feel it in order to understand it? Or witness someone going through it to realize what is going on? I prefer to never feel this or see it happen. I am quite pleased with classroom discussion when it comes to this.
IMO your answer is a little unjust in jumping to conclusions though I do undestand the point you are trying to get across. It wasn't like a buddy and myself said screw it lets jump in and see how far we can go.... So when would one know when they are ready to recieve additional intruction under the water?? LOL, do I need to log 5000 dives before I can start working on max recreational, night, navigation?? When do you feel someone would be ready??? I think the congestion was a major issue. The problem is I am always somewhat congested. This is something that I have to deal with. If I was scared my meds would wear off I would never dive. I think mixing the wreck and depth was stupid...DM said it was ok, so I figured I guess it is time to give this a shot. I take responsibility for my own actions. As for the panic which is what this is mainly about is what freaked me out the most. Point is just because I am new to the forums wth under 20 dives under my belt, I could put 90% of the people on here through some stuff that would have them freaking out in a minute in various other forms of activities.. Panic can and does happen.

NO, a 130-140fsw dive is not required for AOW. I believe one to 100fsw is required for your Deep specialty, but definitly not 130-140fsw for AOW and sure as heck not a 140fsw dive on a wreck. Your instructor risked your life on that one.

As far as how many dives. That is going to be different for everybody. There are several things that come into play there.

-Some people learn faster than others.
-Some people feel more comfortable at one level faster than others
-some people get in the water more often than others
--so on and so on

It is all up to you. My point was that even if you were comfortable with all your current skill level you still weren't ready to move up to a "beyond recreational dive" on a wreck (inside or out) without the proper gear and while on medication.

You need to be honest with yourself. It is no skin off anybody's back if you go out and get killed, but most of us don't want to see that happen.

One mark of a good diver, in my opinion, is one that isn't scared to thumb a dive for any reason that makes them unsettled. If you have been having to take medication for several days and especially if you have alredy had a couple of problems then it probably isn't the time to be taking your deepest dive, and dive on a wreck, without the proper equipment. Also, dive learning is part of progression. If you have 10-20-or even 50 dives at 50fsw or shallower and all on reefs (for example) then you probably don't want to make your next dive a 200fsw wreck penetration dive (just an example). Maybe your next several dives you want to try to 60-80fsw range. Then you move on and on. Then maybe when your comfortable at 120-130fsw, after a bit (time depends on you) then maybe you can add a wreck, or something else, that is within a limit that you are already comfortable with.

Point being, you add 1 new thing at a time, not several. New divers tend to have problems with task loading, especially when things go wrong as they started to for you. A new diver can easily panic in those situations, as you did, and when they do they tend to die.

Somebody that has taken the progressive approach and "earned their dues" so to speak would have had minimal problems in your situation. Key reason is they wouldn't have paniced, most likely. I have been snagged in a wreck before and my respiration rate never changed and I never once started to panic. I stopped, thought my way out of the situation, then acted to extract myself. Forty-five seconds to a minute later I was free and back continuing my dive. I don't just mean caught on a rail either, I was snagged on my manifold on wires hanging in the wreck.

Take your time and enjoy. The deeper dives, and wreck dives, will come in their own time, if that is what you want. There is nothing down there worth dying for.

 

[rockjock3]

Let me know your best way of training for a wreck....I would love to hear what you have to say for that. I am sure your just full of useful info.

Progressively. I have dove to over 240fsw, but wouldn't try a wreck at that depth, even though I have several line running penetration wreck dives under my belt. Why, because I haven't had enough dives to that depth to be comfortable enough to task load myself with the risks of the wrecks yet. Also, cause there are no wrecks in that depth in Hawaii. You become comfortable at one level of loading and/or depths before you add more tasks. Wreck diving isn't just one task, it is countless tasks to manage in addition of simply diving. Risks you can't even think of yet. Next time you are diving try to take a macro picture while diving and see if you don't start to float up, like many newer divers, then decide if you are being honest with yourself. That is a perfect example of task loading that I am talking about. You need to be able to do your current set of skills automatically, without even thinking, so that when you get into a bad situation you don't have to think about them and you can relax and handle the situation without things going bad with bouyancy, trim, etc, while you are working on the problem.

 

[Ann Marie]

Member's shouldn't be worried about posting here but I know that an incident like the OP's can lead to members thinking and posting without considering the effects their words have.

Once Loyal, I applaud you for posting your story here. I'm glad you weren't hurt and have learned from your actions. By posting, you may have saved the life of someone else or at least made another new diver aware of things that could happen if they just follow along. What happened to you during that dive was serious and I hope now you realize that you could have easily died or at least seriously injured if things had taken a turn for the worse.

I would also like to thank the members that did report some posts. Staff can't be everywhere and read everything and it helps everyone when a member steps up to let us know that something posted is just not right.

 

[dmoore19]

First off I think it is pretty sad that a mod would have to come in and clean up a thread like this. Shows the amount of - well I won't say or he will be cleaning me up-









This is the stuff I was more or less looking for. I will try to answer everything the best I can.

As stated before I always have congestion problems. Should I have thumbed the dive? Well, to be honest no, or hmmm maybe. I am not sure. I always heard that reverse blockage is very rare. I thought if I was ok on he descent that the rest of the dive would be fine. This is what I used to judge wether or not the dive should continue. I also told the DM this before I went in and told him a possible ascent would take place. On more shallow dives I never experienced any problems.

Do I think I am ready for a dive like this? At this point no. I was actually nervous about the dive before hand. I never really felt confident with my last portion of training. I've just been told that I worry too much. Which is odd for me because I am a confident, but never cocky and should've trusted my gut instinct, which would be to get more training until I feel comfortable. I would like to say I am a natural in the water. I learned to swim at 2 1/2 - 3 years old by being thrown into a pool. I did all the highschool swim team and blah blah. I am in the water probably 3-4 times per week. Not scuba, but just to show I feel very natural in the water. I guess I felt somewhat secure with the DM that was present.

Narcosis and panic...hmmmm, well I don't believe I suffered any conditions of, and before I got to the upper deck I had already calmed myself so I would want to say no. Good question though and you have me thinking. I think the panic was just a combo of the snag and the pain of someone jamming a knife into my forehead and me not being able to correct the situation immediately.

As for being in a shorty I think it was very ignorant on my part and everyone else that went, especially considering the place was overwhelmed with fire breathing worms in a tight location!!! I will be honest. I am not sure about the temp. I did not feel uncomfortable at all, but considering what I was going through I don't think I would have. I did not have my computer on me, I was only keeping track in my head of our times, descent rates, and Air incase I had to head back up.

All in all no I don't think I was ready for a dive like this. I am actually diving tomorrow off Ft. Lauderdale and talked my origional inst. to join me to discuss aditional training on going deep.

We did have a bottle at 30ft. Support on surface, but no O2 or anything that I can rememeber.

Feel free to ask This helps me relive things in my head. I am trying to learn everything I can from this experience.

Glad you are comfortable in the water like that. I am not a strong swimmer, I am an adequate swimmer. I am still a novice in this sport and am working at getting better. While I am still a novice a lot of the things you did I was taught not to do. Being critical is not my intention, but, from my perspective I saw lots of things that would make me thumb the dive.

Almost everyone out there is more qualified than I am. But I think there were lots of possibilities here for you to be injured. I would not have undertaken a dive that exposed me to a decompression obligation without knowing that I had gotten the classroom work, experience and proper certifications to do this dive safely. I am not sure but I think that it would require a certification from a Tech diving agency. To me 140' is still scary and way beyond my certification of OW. But then 60' is the limit of my certification, not sure what the limit of AOW is but I think it is 90'. I know that 140 fsw is beyond the limits of a recreational dive and I think it is beyond AOW certification. I think the DM that you went with could be held liable for anything that happend to you because of his DM status. Not sure about this but maybe somebody could clear that one up as well.

I am not a physician but I would seek the help of a qualified Dive physician to see what they think the possible sinus pain was and if it is depth related or not. I would also find a ENT physician to help you with the congestion problem possibly making it a non-issue in the future. If you injured yourself enough on one dive, it may make it impossible to ever dive safely at any depth let alone 140 fsw. I for one would rather dive safely at 60' for the rest of my life than be physically unable to dive to any depth forever.

Sounds like you have found the answers to the skin and temperature protection for yourself. It is something that I have heard others talk about but for me the comfort of a adequate wetsuit is well worth the hassle of wearing one.

Did you plan the dive before you did it? Did you know that there was a deco obligation? I was wondering if you had a bottom timer or a depth gauge with you. You said you did not have a computer. There is another thread on this board that the battle rages on concerning the use of computers versus tables but in any case you should have planned a dive to 140 fsw regardless of having a computer with you or not but especially if you did not. Most of what I have read says that for a dive like that redundant depth a pressure gauges are heartily suggested. Again I am far from being an experienced diver but these are things that I was taught and have learned from places like this board.

I think others have a lot to add to this and I hope they join in and help. I think that most of my comments are very real concerns and comments. If I am incorrect I need to be corrected.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Reverse blocks are not rare. Using a decongestant over a period of time to get rid of the congestion can have what is known as a rebound effect that occurs when the drug begins to wear off and the condition comes back much worse than before. My last and only reverse block was due to just this kind of practice and resulted in intense pain, the right side of my face swollen and partially paralyzed, and a numbness and tingling that took two full weeks to totally go away. I will not dive when I need drugs to help me clear.

The other issue is what appears to have been a poorly planned penetration of a deep wreck with divers perhaps not ready for it. You do not need to get to 140 for advanced cert with NAUI. I have the S&P's and the deep dive only needs to be in excess of 60 feet with a recommended max depth of 100 feet. 130 is indeed the recreational limit but I know few instructor who will take AOW students to that depth. Lack of bottom time, gas usage, and other factors make doing this risky and usually leave less than enough time for the necessary skills. My other question is where was your buddy when you were entangled for that brief period? If you say the DM was your buddy you are wrong. He was leading 3 divers and was unaware of your predicament? He was not your buddy. The panic you felt was also most likely a result of being narced. At 140 feet, prior apprehension, and the sinus issues were also contributing factors. Narcosis is manifested in many different ways. About as many as there are divers. Each person is different. There is also some indication that certain medications may intensify the effect. Since you have so few deep dives under controlled conditions and it sounds like no tests to judge your response to the effects( timed tasks, judgement related tasks, etc) you may not realize just how narced you were.

The most disturbing issue however is not having any kind of computer, depth gauge, timing device. Who were you relying on for this info? The DM, the other divers? Why would you even consider doing that? What would have happened if you had gotten seperated from all of them. How would you have monitored your ascent, stop times, and, if it happened at the wrong time, you could have ended up incurring mandatory deco and not known it until it became necessary to take a ride in the chamber. I'd also question the judgement of the DM for allowing you to do this. You are very lucky. I hope you really take some serious lessons from this and apply them. ANd yeah it;s time to get the hell away from an op that would have allowed this to happen. That you had no computer, depth gauge, or other way of monitoring the dive on your own should have immediately resulted in you not doing the dive at all. And 140 is beyond standards if this was indeed a training dive.

Just out of curiosity what was your exact profile? Depths, time at those depths, and ascent rate. If you don't know then you are really lucky you are here safe. Every agency I know of requires timing device, depth gauge, and spg on training dives for each diver. Not having these is not only a breech of those standards but can result in some very hurt or dead divers especially on a dive like this.

 

[rockjock3]

Do I think I am ready for a dive like this? At this point no. I was actually nervous about the dive before hand. I never really felt confident with my last portion of training. I've just been told that I worry too much. Which is odd for me because I am a confident, but never cocky and should've trusted my gut instinct, which would be to get more training until I feel comfortable.

Narcosis and panic...hmmmm, well I don't believe I suffered any conditions of, and before I got to the upper deck I had already calmed myself so I would want to say no. Good question though and you have me thinking. I think the panic was just a combo of the snag and the pain of someone jamming a knife into my forehead and me not being able to correct the situation immediately.

As for being in a shorty I think it was very ignorant on my part and everyone else that went, especially considering the place was overwhelmed with fire breathing worms in a tight location!!! I will be honest. I am not sure about the temp. I did not feel uncomfortable at all, but considering what I was going through I don't think I would have. I did not have my computer on me, I was only keeping track in my head of our times, descent rates, and Air incase I had to head back up.

All in all no I don't think I was ready for a dive like this. I am actually diving tomorrow off Ft. Lauderdale and talked my origional inst. to join me to discuss aditional training on going deep.

We did have a bottle at 30ft. Support on surface, but no O2 or anything that I can rememeber.

Feel free to ask This helps me relive things in my head. I am trying to learn everything I can from this experience.

This is now the type of thinking that is smart, and will keep you alive. The most important thing you can learn diving (one of the most important things), is knowing when to thumb a dive and then actually thumbing it. Anybody that isn't cool with you thumbing a dive or gives you a hard time about it is not somebody you want to be diving with. I have thumbed dives my buddies didn't and they gave me no grief. I have also continued on dives, with my other team members, when one of us thumbed their dive, and have even totally cancelled dives when one of us thumbed one. Point is that none of us gave each other grief about it, EVER. Sometimes things don't feel right (just a feeling), sometimes conditions don't make you comfortable, you might not be feeling "ON", etc.

Very good move to talk to you instructor and discuss the situation further with him.

 

[openmindOW]

OnceLoyal, thank you for your honesty in posting on ScubaBoard. The point of this Board is to allow posters to share their experiences so that others can learn. Thank you for your contribution.

I'll make three comments and then ask several questions.
1) Thank goodness that you are okay.

2) Please do not EVER penetrate a wreck again unless you get the appropriate training, certification and equipment to do so. Wreck penetration, especially on a deep wreck, is dangerous. Quite frankly, you could have died on the dive. I am glad you are okay.

3) You are to be commended for staying calm. That may have saved your life.

OnceLoyal, please answer a few questions for me. I ask them for the purpose of trying to get a fuller understanding of the incident. Here are my questions:

1) Where did this incident occur? If it was in Florida, do you know the name of the wreck?

2) How did you access the Dive Site? By boat? If so, was it a commercial dive charter or was it by personal craft?

3) You had a DM with you. Was he or she a hired Dive Guide? Or was your DM a friend? Do you know what agency (PADI, NAUI, etc) the DM is a DM for?

4) Do you know how much air was in tank when your returned to the surface (boat or shore)? An answer in either PSI or cubic feet would be great.

5) When and where did you get certified? What agency?

6) It sounds like there were three divers in your team. Whose idea was it to do this dive? Did anyone object to the dive plan?

Thank you again, OnceLoyal. Please keep diving - just do it more safely from now on..