OMS and their Bungeed Wing

[roakey]

Originally posted by NetDoc
As for un-answered benefits, no one on the "other side of the bungee" has commented on the reduced air shift with a bungeed system, and how you can easily adjust your trim as well

Air shift? Oh, you're referring to the wonderful tool that the bungee system takes away from you.

You're forced with a bungee system to guess/adjust (yet another level of complexity and things to go wrong) the bungee tension (can you still orally inflate the wing with the new tension? -- another thing to forget to test) before the dive for some *static* trim configuration.

Without bungees you shift the air where you need it. As you breathe, drop and recover stages, you simply shift the air in the wing to counteract the changing buoyancy that is acting on your trim.

If you want to look for leads in the wall to your right you roll to the right and the air moves to the right side of the wing and it holds you there, looking to the right. Left? Same thing.

Air shift is not something to avoid, it's a tool to use. And a powerful tool as well. I find it disappointing that OMS scares people away from this technique to sell their wings.

Originally posted by NetDoc
about the alleged disastrous effects of a Bungeed power leak... I will not dive that over weighted!

Then why does OMS promote and produce dual bladders? To rip off gullible people?

Roak

 

[The Chairman]

I appreciate the concern for my safety, and I do realize that hard or even moderately hard exercise is contraindicated for those who have excess nitrogen diffused in their blood. My buoyancy is such that I do not need to struggle to get to the surface and I kick only so that I will ascend slowly. When I reach the level where I want to stay for deco or safety stop, I might take a brief hit on my inflator to keep me there easily. However, before I continue my ascent I deplete the air in my bladder once more and head up... slowly. Very slowly. I am in no hurry to reach the surface at the end, and that is probably why I don’t feel as bad as some after three or four tanks in a day. Going slow and using NitrOx seem to be the ticket for me. There, I don’t even think I needed nary a bungee or any data to elucidate that one.

And Roakey, I asked you a question first… Do you not believe that you should be able to ascend without any air in your BC? Answering a question with a question just seems to be an evasive maneuver. You can 'splain your answer, but a "yes" or "no" would be nice.

As for air shift being a tool… well, as of yet it has not been taught to me, so I had better not try it until you or someone else takes the time to teach me to do it correctly. Personally, I find an air shift uncomfortable and not always predictable. Constantly monitoring such movements and guessing as to how they will affect you seems like a lot of extra tasks to deal with, especially in a close environment where you could easily puncture or rip your bladder. I seem to have no problem changing my orientation/attitude at will without it, so maybe my diving has not needed it. Perhaps it never will. Still, that does not make it any less of a tool for you to use. We just dive differently, and I don't think either one of is doing it wrong!

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by NetDoc
And Roakey, I asked you a question first… Do you not believe that you should be able to ascend without any air in your BC? Answering a question with a question just seems to be an evasive maneuver. You can 'splain your answer, but a "yes" or "no" would be nice.

Me! Me! Ask Me!.... :wave:

.... :wave:

.... :wave:



I can't! Not with double 104s, argon, light, deco bottle....
Not without some gas in the suit or wing....
Or ditching the argon.... not gonna happen!
Or ditching the light.... would'nt want to!
Or ditching the deco bottle.... no way!
But there is always Buddy or lift bag...

 

[The Chairman]

UP that was too funny... still chuckling to myself. So I guess your drysuit is a redundant system for bouyancy as well??? I don't know, so I am asking.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Yes...the drysuit is the redundant buoyancy device...plus the lift bag...plus the buddy...

But I would still like to be able to swim them suckers up...
I'm workin' on it but full they are heavy!!!
My buddy and I winded ourselves one day trying....
And I think if I would have kept at it I could have succeeded....
Because empty they are 18# lighter...

 

[roakey]

Originally posted by NetDoc
And Roakey, I asked you a question first… Do you not believe that you should be able to ascend without any air in your BC

I searched and could not find any sentence of yours ending with a "?" mark referring to ascending with an empty BC, at least on page 4. I found a statement of yours, but no question. If I missed it I apologize, pease point it out to me.

Before I answer, I need to clarify one point that you leave undefined:

Are you asking about being able to ascend without ditching any weights or equipment?

Roak

 

[Uncle Pug]

Originally posted by roakey

I searched and could not find any sentence of yours ending with a "?" mark referring to ascending with an empty BC, at least on page 4. I found a statement of yours, but no question. If I missed it I apologize, pease point it out to me.

Before I answer, I need to clarify one point that you leave undefined:

Are you asking about being able to ascend without ditching any weights or equipment?

Roak

Hey Roak....
I included the quote from Pete asking you the question because I was jumping in and answering...

I wasn't the one asking you the question....

I am sorry but I claim jumped ya...

 

[The Chairman]

I don't know enough about how you guys dive to know how to ask the question. I am not trying to trap you... it can be either with or without weights. But really, when I dive I can literally deflate all of the air in my BC and make it to the surface without much work. In fact having a runaway ascent when I first started, I have made it the way I ascend... let a LOT of air out before I go up.

 

[roakey]

UP, Sorry, that question was directed at Pete, it just inherited his subject line...

Originally posted by NetDoc
And Roakey, I asked you a question first… Do you not believe that you should be able to ascend without any air in your BC? Answering a question with a question just seems to be an evasive maneuver. You can 'splain your answer, but a "yes" or "no" would be nice.

I am not trying to trap you... it can be either with or without weights. But really, when I dive I can literally deflate all of the air in my BC and make it to the surface without much work. In fact having a runaway ascent when I first started, I have made it the way I ascend... let a LOT of air out before I go up.

Ok, fair enough. General answer, without ditching weight: No.
General answer with ditching weight: Emphatic Yes.

By “general” I'm talking about singles or doubles; I take it you don't dive with doubles. Swing weight of an AL80 is about 6 pounds. If you're correctly weighted, such that you're neutral with no gas in the cylinder, you are 6 pounds negative at the start of the dive. Add the compression of a 7mm wet suit at 100 feet for example and you're on the order of 15 or more pounds negative. You can swim that up, but it won't be "without much work" no matter how you look at it. The good news is that it becomes easier as you ascend.

Most people “test” swimming up at the end of the dive and fairly shallow -- that’s not the point to test your rig, it’s at the start of the dive and deep when the cylinder is most negative and your suit is most compressed (if you’re diving wet).

With double 80s, that –15 or more becomes –21 or more, so without ditching weight you will be unable to swim your rig up. With LP104s overfilled that’s about –25 pounds. You’re not even going to get off the bottom with that much weight and it’s highly unlikely that you’re going to be able to ditch enough weight to be able to swim the rig up! This is why double steels and wet suits are no-nos.

DIR says you must be able to swim your rig up, so you need to figure out how you’re going to accomplish that. For me, if push comes to shove, I ditch my canister light (I need an excuse for an HID anyway ). However, if I have a hole in my BC I have two options. First, I keep the hole low and use the BC normally, secondly I can use the dry suit as a BC. Both solutions are available to me without any additional equipment, bulk (even if the bladders are in a common shell, the additional bladder adds bulk), complexity, dangling hoses or failure points of double bladders.

One of the DIR bottom lines is “Only bring what you need.” You don’t need redundant bladders.

Roak

 

[Lost Yooper]

I like that post, Roakey. I'd also like to add that a good buddy and/or a lift bag will also get you up in the event of a total BC and drysuit failure. A nicely balanced rig is essential to shoot for, but in reality, swimming up is still the last option, IMO. With a wetsuit, this balanced rig is essential. Being properly balanced/weighted (wet or dry) is important in not only in being able to get up, but also for optimal streamlining. Being properly weighted and balanced kills two birds (actually more birds than that) with one stone.

Take care.

Mike

BTW, a lift bag placed in the right location doesn't create the drag of double bladders either. Doesn't cost as much either.