"old school" training?

[Bob DBF]

The difference between the amount of training I received in my basic and AOW and what I see now is substantial. I'd like my wife to learn to dive, but would much rather she receive a more thorough training - theory, pool work and then ocean. Not do a little bit here, then a specialty cert there. Do any of the organizations teach a more thorough 'old school' type course anymore?

Regardless of whether it’s BSAC club as someone suggested, or another agency, talk to instructors and tell them what you want and a timeframe and see what they can do, or ask them to refer you to someone that can help you. You might have to pay for private lessons or for the additional time it may take, but you will find a good instructor that can do the job you need.


Good luck

Bob

 

[CuzzA]

The recent thread about the conditions in Monterey where a fatality occurred has made me really think hard about the way I learned, versus how diving seems to be taught now. I did my basic, AOW and Dive Coordinator back in the 70s with NASDS (now SSI). We had substantial amounts of theory, pool work, then a set of boat dives, then a set of beach dives. I left diving for a while and when I came back did refreshers and some 'specialties' not because I needed them (except Nitrox) but because it was a way to have some certs that (even though specialty) dive boats in various parts of the world would recognize (most have never heard of NASDS).

The difference between the amount of training I received in my basic and AOW and what I see now is substantial. I'd like my wife to learn to dive, but would much rather she receive a more thorough training - theory, pool work and then ocean. Not do a little bit here, then a specialty cert there. Do any of the organizations teach a more thorough 'old school' type course anymore?

If driving a car was like current scuba certification it would be mass mayhem on the roads. Basic, here is how you start the car, steer, brake and try not to crash. Now, you need to take specialty courses in parking, driving at night, driving on the freeway - but in between just go driving.

To expand on Bob's suggestion about choosing the right instructor, you have to understand the consumer changed and we nickle and dime everything now. To the point we'll buy some cheap Chinese crap four times over when we could have bought quality once. So, the dive industry changed with this new American consumer. They broke down the original basic scuba diving course into four classes to make it affordable for divers to get into the sport. Plus they created an emphasis on AOW to add experiences to keep new divers interested and perhaps stay in the sport like many of us here. So the four courses are now basic scuba, AOW, Deep Diver and Rescue. Each of these courses expand your knowledge and skills to prepare you for more challenging situations. They also come with their guideline limits on depth. As we know the deeper we go the margin for error decreases. So that said, if you're willing to fork over the equivalent money in today's dollars to get equivalent training from yesteryear, you should have her take all four classes plus nitrox. She would come away from this training regiment over the course of several weeks and perhaps with over twenty dives* likely being a well rounded new diver. Participating on forums like this and especially the A&I sub forum will polish her knowledge and expand on dive theory. Alternatively, she could take her time and dive within her training for each course and the guidelines taught for each course and eventually have the skill set of a full open water diver.

* The majority of dive accidents happen to diver with less than twenty dives.

 

[DBPacific]

I think it depends on where you train and who with.

My OW (2018) was in a high tourist, tropical area and while it did just fine to prepare me for diving in warm, relatively calm tropics, I do in retrospect see issues and habits that I wish I had started off not doing instead of unlearning (kneeling for drills, only doing flutter kicks, clearing dives for divers who were not ready). I mostly chalk up the issues in their classes and dive ops as 'lots of tourists, lots of business, lots of rush.'

Later classes though I took in the PNW - cold, low vis, and lots of water movement, and I was able to watch OW classes too. The instructors there were a lot more rigorous, more thorough, and we were all pretty well prepared for that kind of diving. It's a tougher environment than the tropics, and the level of intensity increased proportionally.

 

[Angelo Farina]

I was trained in 1975 here in Italy, with FIPS/CMAS. The course was 6+ months long, and it did include EVERYTHING: savage, deep diving with deco and twin cylinders plus pony, it was standard to use tow fully independent regs and NO BCD. We were also trained using pure oxygen rebreathers (actually we used them more than compressed air scuba systems).
A lot of exercises with no equipment at all, including 25 meters of underwater frog swimming holding your breath. A lot of exercises with just fins, mask and snorkel, including reaching 15 meters and resurfacing, with the help of a big weight for speeding up the descent.
The theory-pool part did include multistage deco, using of mixtures (no Nitrox at the time), resuscitation techniques, human physiology, advanced breathing techniques, advanced equalization techniques (including Frenzel and Marcante-Odaglia), and introduction to deep free diving.
Despite all of this, the final certification was allowing just for 15 meters maximum depth and no deco.
The following years i also followed the coruse of level II and III. The latter gave me certification for a maximum depth of 50m, with multistage deco, which is something now considered "technical". I was also certified for pure oxygen rebreathers (ARO) down to 10 meters.
These limits are well deeper than what is actually permitted to rec divers.
the training method was very hard, military-style. Students had to obey entirely to the instructor, carrying his equipment and doing any kind of "corve'" when required, including washing the floor of the lab where the scrubbers were refilled, or taking care of the compressor while filling the cylinders.
We started in 45, only 10 of them were certified at the end of the first of course. of these ten, only I proceeded to levels II and III in the following years, as for most people the training received in the first course was fully enough for all their needs.
That level of training was truly excessive. years later, when i was already an instructur, I had my one-year mandatory military service as a firefighter.
In Italy firefigheters are a paramilitary corp, with a central training center in Rome. The training lasts 3.5 months. As I was already an instructor, I had the opportunity to help during the training course for scuba diving (there is a special group of scuba-divers in the Firefighters Corp).
The method employed there was substantially similar to my forst course. But the coruse was shorter, there was no rebreather part, and the requirement were generally lower.
Hence the standard of my fiorst course was HIGHER than the staandard of a para-military course!
The same happened to my wife: she had a very similar path tpo my one, simply she started on year later.
And also she, when instructor, had the possibility to compare her training with the training of another Italian military corp, Carabinieri (they are fully military). Also in her case resulted that she had a longer and deeper training than the specialised corp of Scuba Carabinieri.
The only military corp doing substantially the same training as in these old FIPS/CMAS course was COMSUBIN, a group of the Italian navy which can be considered similar to US NAVY SEALs. Thei also have a 6-months training, and are trained to use the oxygen rebreathers.
All that said, the result is: was such a long, difficult and expensive training required for becoming a scuba diver? Of course NO.
In fact, in subsequent years, the FIPS didactic program was reduced significantly, realigning it with agencies of other countries operating under the CMAS affiliation, such as BSAC.
Nowadays these courses are much shorter and lighter, still being more "serious" and providing wider range of knowledge and skills than the corresponding US-based agencies (such as PADI, NAUI, etc.).
So the answer for the original poster, and my recommendation, as he is based in UK, is to go with BSAC, obtaining a CMAS certification. This provides a much solid base than a minimal OW course with PADI or the like.
Still, the PADI method creates very good divers, but this requires a number of subsequent courses and a lot of so-called "specialisations". Which in the end take more time and cost much more money than a single, solid and properly long first course.
It must also be said that we are not all equal. The PADI approach works better with a certain type of people, who simply cannot learn "everything in a batch", and they need to assess any new skill with some practice, before moving to the next.
So I do not think that the PADI approach is wrong, nor dangerous. For some people it can even be better...

 

[AfterDark]

I agree with the OP. My training in 1968 was very comprehensive. There were no exercises or running, there was a lot of a swimming however. Being as auto inflators and BCDs were still in the making swimming was important. We were taught the how's and whys of diving. We ended with 3 shore dives and 2 boat dives.

The downside of a course like that today is the cost, in 1968 the cost was $125.00 today that would probably closer to $1225.00 in the USA

 

[loosenit2]

A thread on this topic comes up frequently enough.

Like many others I did OW/AOW/Rescue 25+ years ago when I was 19-20 years old. Back then I was a hesitant to dive outside of the confines of a buddy and guide, I was not individually confident despite 6 months of near constant training. Like many others I took a couple of decade break. When I took up diving again in my mid 40s I was rusty, needed the refresher on skills and dives to be safe but something had changed. I had grown more confident and self reliant as a person and it reflected in my diving.

My point is that the training being delivered is only one aspect of training, the mentality & maturity of the person being trained is every bit as important in determining the outcome. Detailed training will not make a brash or mildly interested person a great diver no matter what, whereas a mature and dedicated person can become a great diver with minimal training; we can't discount the individuals mindset.

 

[TMHeimer]

A thread on this topic comes up frequently enough.

Like many others I did OW/AOW/Rescue 25+ years ago when I was 19-20 years old. Back then I was a hesitant to dive outside of the confines of a buddy and guide, I was not individually confident despite 6 months of near constant training. Like many others I took a couple of decade break. When I took up diving again in my mid 40s I was rusty, needed the refresher on skills and dives to be safe but something had changed. I had grown more confident and self reliant as a person and it reflected in my diving.

My point is that the training being delivered is only one aspect of training, the mentality & maturity of the person being trained is every bit as important in determining the outcome. Detailed training will not make a brash or mildly interested person a great diver no matter what, whereas a mature and dedicated person can become a great diver with minimal training; we can't discount the individuals mindset.

Yes I agree. I think part of the problem is that some new divers don't dive regularly enough right after OW course. I think there are a lot of things you pick up in the first year or two that just aren't covered in the course--due to time constraints. That's tied into the old discussion about teaching the appropriate skills neutrally vs. the old "on your knees". The former will produce better divers right off the bat. The latter will probably produce even better divers IF the neutrally-taught ones dive 5 times the first year and the knees people dive 50.

 

[Blackcrusader]

@drjtprice since you're in the UK, checking out BSAC will at least give a much more thorough training schedule than most of the agencies. GUE will give the most thorough, but it is very difficult to find GUE Rec 1 courses since very few people are willing to pay for it. I would start with BSAC and go from there

I started with PADI OW but then did 2 years in a BSAC Club with sports diving courses. When I see PADI courses now I think wow. I still have my old BSAC Novice diver and other manuals. Even the Novice sports diver manual covers things you would never learn in PADI. For a start all dives are DECO planned which PADI does not cover. Things like cave diving and wreck diving were just other aspects of diving.

Sports Diving course with BSAC the way to go.

 

[Riles2226]

To expand on Bob's suggestion about choosing the right instructor, you have to understand the consumer changed and we nickle and dime everything now. To the point we'll buy some cheap Chinese crap four times over when we could have bought quality once. So, the dive industry changed with this new American consumer. They broke down the original basic scuba diving course into four classes to make it affordable for divers to get into the sport. Plus they created an emphasis on AOW to add experiences to keep new divers interested and perhaps stay in the sport like many of us here. So the four courses are now basic scuba, AOW, Deep Diver and Rescue. Each of these courses expand your knowledge and skills to prepare you for more challenging situations. They also come with their guideline limits on depth. As we know the deeper we go the margin for error decreases. So that said, if you're willing to fork over the equivalent money in today's dollars to get equivalent training from yesteryear, you should have her take all four classes plus nitrox. She would come away from this training regiment over the course of several weeks and perhaps with over twenty dives* likely being a well rounded new diver. Participating on forums like this and especially the A&I sub forum will polish her knowledge and expand on dive theory. Alternatively, she could take her time and dive within her training for each course and the guidelines taught for each course and eventually have the skill set of a full open water diver.

* The majority of dive accidents happen to diver with less than twenty dives.

To add to this, it seems that the consumer is not the only thing that changed. The "old school" training assumed the worst case/maximal scenario and trained you to that level. The industry has split things out because it was realized that there were many people that would be entirely capable of handling nice tropical dives and would never have a desire to go below 60' or deal with drift dives or dive without a dive guide, etc. Parting things out did generate more industry revenue and meet the nickle and dime consumer but it also reduced the barrier to entry then showed a path for increasing skills as a new diver's interest grew.

I have taught many families and couples that come into OW class saying they like to snorkel and want to just spend more time in the places they see when they snorkel. Many are happy to never exceed 40'...that is, until they get down there. The current training methodologies allow them to get their feet wet (literally and figuratively) and start diving. Once they do, they have the opportunity to expand their skills as slowly or quickly as they desire and explore the underwater world on the path that best fits them and their interests.

 

[admikar]

I think that approach is fine until something goes wrong, or seriously wrong. Yes, it covers conditions, generally, although I have been in heavy currents on the Great Barrier Reef that a diver trained in typical tropical locations would be caught out by. One can argue that whether some of the theory is necessary (gas laws etc., now covered in the Science of Diving specialty) we spent a lot of time in the pool on being comfortable with things going wrong (and did ditch and don in AOW, as well as black out mask drills). That training, I think, has made me a far better diver and meant what I learned has stayed with me longer, than just how to handle what goes right, and niggling little issues like mask flooding.

Wait, are you saying that gas laws are not included in OW theory?!
Not to bother you with details, I'll admit that I chose my OW instructor based on my time window. And I must say it was a lucky pick. I believe that course value comes to instructor's motivation rather than agency requirements.