Oh wonderful. An online tech course.

[O-ring]

Two of the classes where I spend the most time in the classroom are OW and Advanced Nitrox. Any guess as to why?

OW - first introduction into diving...period. Strong introduction into fundamental skills - all the regular stuff plus buoyancy, etc.

Advanced Nitrox - IMHO, nitrox gets more dangerous here, so that is why the increased time. When dealing with 50% and especially 100%, MODs and the possibility of tox become much more restrictive and important to pay close attention to.

 

[MikeFerrara]

OW is an intro to diving. In addition to phisical skills and theory this is where we need to teach attitude, judgment and ethics. The text does an ok job of presenting facts but the instructor should tie it together and show application.

Advanced Nitrox is an intro to tech diving. Again along with new skills and theory comes a new attitude. Technical diving (I'm not crazy about the term either) is not recreational diving with more expensive equipment. When you have a problem and going home isn't an option you know your not in Kansas any more. This sounds like a no-brainer but when it happens.... I don't care what agency you look at there is an awfull lot that isn't in the book. Someone at this level will soon be responsible for keeping themeselve abreast of new technologies and theories and deciding who they believe and how they will apply it.

IMO, with fast cheap classes, home study or learning on the net this is what is lost. Divers aren't learning the attitude and ethics. the attitude they learn is "I paid my money now show me the reef and the fishies!"

To take this one step further I think instructors and student would be better if they had to live with each other for a while.

I teach a new diver to stay shallow and out of overheads. They finish the class, have no time to do extra dives with me. They then go to the Caribbean and their third dive is a wreck penetration at 100 ft. Everything I did was a wast of time. All there other dives are with divers walking all over the reef and all manor of other bad things. We try to limit our childrens exposure to bad examples we need to do the same with students.
Look, I can teach a fast class and sell a student some junk equipment and send them down the road. They will be the problem of a DM in Mexico. If this student was going to be diving with (or around) me for a while I would have to live with my mistakes. On the other hand not too long ago that's just what a student did. You took a class, bought the equipment the instructor recommended (told you to buy) and you dove with the shop for a while. They may decide to go another rout later but there was continuity in the beginning. Now students read the net and come in knowing more than us. The problem is some are so confused they won't ever learn to dive because their busy trying to figure out who is right. I tell a new diver to use this kind of bc. They get a deal on e-bay and buy some piece of junk that forces the tank way low on the back. Then they want me to fix their trim problem. When I tell them they may need to buy something they listen to their buddies on the net and accuse me of being a crook. I can't help this person.

Less exposure to the instructor isn't the answer. We need good, ethical instructors and students need to spend more time with them. Students like childred shouldn't be allowed to choose for themselves untill they know enough. New divers don't know enough. If they did the vis at the quarry would be better.

 

[lanun]

though we're covering theory, a real live instructor adds a lot of intangibles.

one small example was when i took my Adv Nitrox - not only did we cover the math, etc, but when we did the examples, my instructor asked me to think out loud my rationale for doing the dive plan the way i did. and pointed out the small omissions (which table was it again ? wouldn't it be nice to reconfirm Vs just running from memory ?, etc)

this forces the habit and discipline of thinking through the lessons learned, classroom though it may be, and helps me understand as opposed to memorizing the steps.

at somepoint, maybe CBT (with mongo AI logic) might get sophisticated enough to emulate that. but not yet.

 

[MHK]

It seems to me that this whole notion of doing the academics via the telephone or via the internet is yet the next step in watering down training. The exchanges between students and instructors are invaluable, and more often then not you'll find a student raise a point that other's hadn't considered. If teh academics are done over the internet, that opportunity is lost..

Furthermore, in my view, the class material should be supplemental to what the instructor brings to the table, it shouldn't be that the instructor simply cover's what's in the material. The subliminal shift here is by making the course material a substitute for academic education what will ultimately happen is that the agencies will wind up standardizing even the academics, because it wouldn't be *fair* for diver A who get's all his information from an internet based education to be expected to "compete" against a diver that has the benefit of the instructors real life experiences.. What you'll see in an attempt to equalize the playing field will be academic standards even weaker then we are seeing now.. Most agree that the quality of education has deteriorated over the years, and this movement to making education more user friendly, in lieu of actual education, is the next step in the slide.. The other way to look at this is if the instructor is only able to offer a regerjitated version of the agency prepared course syllabus then perhaps that instructor has little to offer anyway.. I rarely go with the course material in my classes, since the student needs to do his homework as well.. I'll give them all the tools necessary to help, but at the end of the day they need to do some work themselves..

I can't remember a class that I had in school wherein the professor simply read from the book.. He expected that we would absorb that knowledge in the book and he would add to that core syllabus based on his expertise.. Somewhere along the line in scuba we came to the [illogical] conclusion that all an instructor needs to do is the bare minimum in terms of education, or just enough to "pass" the test.. So given that everyone focused like a laser beam on "passing" the test all efforts are concentrated on the basic level information that appears on the test.. I try to give my students added value in addition to what the agency offer's in terms of basic core information.. To me any agency that advocates learning only the information contained in the books is severly limiting the amount of information that could be exchanged from instructor to student..

In my view, the real question has to be put to the students.. Why in the world would you want to pay for something that doesn't include added value??? Why would you take a class that everything you need to know about it can be read in a book??? You students should be holding your instructors to higher standards then that.. If all they can offer is what's in the book then I would agree you don't need to be paying them for their time..

Later

 

[rustyscubatool]

Now wait a minute here. Let me see if i understand the gist of a few threads I've been reading recently .....

There seems to be a consensus of most of the divers who spoke up that it is a good idea to go to a LDS and pick the store-monkey's brains about gear, try everything on and then go to an Internet site and buy it all cheaper.

Yet, here everyone wants to go to a LDS and get training, because it's a bad thing to do it electronically.

Doesn't make sense to me. Where do they expect to try stuff, but at a LDS. Where do they expect to get air, but at a LDS. Where do they expect to get the vast knowledge that they need to survive in a very very very inhospitable environment, but at a LDS.

We NEED the LDS for us to survive. And we NEED Instructors/salespersons to help us survive. And we need equipment from an LDS and an Instructor/salesperson to help us survive. Simple as that.

Anyone that goes into a LDS intending to look at everything and buy it on-line is commiting fraud, just as if they wore/dove it and then took it back pretending it was unused. They used the store's facilities, the person's time, the person's knowledge, handled the merchandise, etc, etc. And that ain't free. Which is why you don't get it on-line. And that's part of what you pay for when you buy something from that LDS.

PADI has tried to do training on-line (I saw the OW course, cd, text, everything at a BOOKSTORE!), and everyone is still defending them! So why or how does anyone expect to get it all for free?

I've been biting my tongue (fingers?) to not say anything for several days, but I lost the battle over it now. I got to go catch my breath now.

 

[jonnythan]

rustyscubatool once bubbled...
Now wait a minute here. Let me see if i understand the gist of a few threads I've been reading recently .....

There seems to be a consensus of most of the divers who spoke up that it is a good idea to go to a LDS and pick the store-monkey's brains about gear, try everything on and then go to an Internet site and buy it all cheaper.

I don't believe anyone really said that at all. The rest of your argument has been rehashed repeatedly, so I won't even go there at all.

The way I see it, the consensus is that it's a pretty crappy thing to do, but a few people can't really blame the person in question.

 

[SteveW]

I don't think anyone will say an instructor is not vital. I just think much of the class can be done on-line without a lot of problems. When I first started diving, I would see pictures of tech divers with all the gear and say there is no way I could keep up with all that stuff. The more I dove the more I wanted to see things just out of the rec range so I started reading more about tech diving. I got all the manuals IANTD, TDI and GUE to read, along with other books. It didn't seem so difficult intellectually. I might enjoy this but there is no guarantee I would be willing to put that much effort into diving. So I made my two 80's doubles and gave them a try. After a couple of dives it was just like a single, so I added a canister light. Couple more dives I added lift bags and reels. Finally, I added a deco bottle that contained EANx 32 like the doubles. Over dressed for the dives I was by a long way, but good chance to see if this was something I would stick with. Got comfortable in 100-130 ft range and finally signed up for advanced nitrox and deco. My rig was pretty much set and the classroom was easy. On the actual dives I really appreciated having an experienced instructor with me. The first couple were not different the other dives I had done except now I really couldn't go straight to the surface. I spent most of my time looking at gauges and bottom timers, a bit paranoid, people die doing this. After that I was able to relax a little and enjoy myself more. I am still paranoid and have not had anything go wrong to contend with but I can't stop thinking "what if" while I'm diving, going through drills in my head, checking to make sure all my equipment if where it is supposed to be. I thought the instructor did a great job but I was familiar with most everything he taught, but the stories and personal experiences were invaluable. Plus I had a few questions but over all I think piece of mind was the greatest think I got from the class. I have had years of experience in training, not dive training but training, and the most learning is almost always hands on. I think you can cut down on class time using Computer Based Training, but the instructor needs to interact with the student enough to know if they comprehend the material, but really time in the water is where the real learning takes place. If I satify the instructor I have a good grasp of the material let's shorten the class and get more hands on in the water.

 

[DocRCH]

The original post referred to TDI. I did not see anything about TDI in the page linked.

Robert:doctor:

 

[detroit diver]

DocRCH once bubbled...
The original post referred to TDI. I did not see anything about TDI in the page linked.

Robert:doctor:

That website has been changed since my first post. TDI was prominent on the page. I never would have known otherwise if I hadn't seen it.

I guess even they don't condone this type of learning. I'll bet they made American Dive Center pull it from the site.

 

[detroit diver]

If you look quickly, and they don't change it, it's still on the website-just not on the original page. Go to:

www.americandivecenter.com

look under TDI Tec h Courses. It's Online Deep Course.


Here's a cut and paste from the site:

TDI Tech Courses


Nitrox Diver Courses
* Why Nitrox?
Group Course
Private Course
* Online Nitrox Course
Deep Diver Courses
Course Overview
Deep Diving 150'
Deep Diving 200'
Deep Diving 300'
Do It Yourself
Veteran Divers
Online Deep Course
Why TDI?