Octopus and long hoses questions???

[Nemrod]

Is this the DIR forum or what? Where will these strangers come from? Who would they be if your solo then who is going to be there other than yourself? I am not totally sure if I went diving solo and encountered a strange person on the dive that I would be all that enthralled with donating air to them. It is a strange world out there. On the other hand, I would apply common sense and if they appeared to be actually drowning then I would do my best for them but I am not going to alter my solo rig to a less than optimum configuration just so I can assist "strangers" I might encounter. DIR has nothing to do with solo and their Hog rig is optimized for team diving--not solo diving.

If your sky diving do you carry an extra parachute set just in case you encounter a stranger in the sky who might need to borrow your parachute? Group diving is not solo, it is just an unorganized gaggle but it is still buddy diving, albiet disorganized.

How can anyone reasonably think having a seven foot long hose wrapped around their neck is optimum for solo diving. Who are you going to share air with---yourself--you gonna tie a square knot in it or something? Why?

N
NAVED 111

 

[Nemrod]

The seven foot hose came to be in cave diving so that the diver in trouble could swim ahead of the donating diver through small passageways single file. You want the diver in trouble up front so that when you get back to the exit you don't turn around to find you have been trailing a second stage behind you and your team member is dead agaisnt the ceiling. Exactly what part of a cave team intended rig has anything to do with solo diving? Even if your solo cave diving --which I would not do--what would you need a seven foot hose for, an anchor, your gonna route it around your feet and up to your face, it has NO purpose in solo diving. This octapus thing is something we learn nowadays in poodle diving class and cannot get beyond it once we grow up and go off on our on--SOLO. The octapus has only one purpose, air sharing with a buddy which has nothing to do with solo diving.

What does DIR have to do with solo?

Answer---nothing.

This odd compartmentalization of diving into sub specialties is weird anyways. But, more than that I think the DIR guys are being picked on unfairly. It is that DIR term--Do It Right--that causes other divers to get upset such as what initiated this thread. Who are they to think they are RIGHT and then these threads go on and on about how they are wrong. Well, they are right--for them and they are wrong for solo and they don't care about solo since they dive as a team so why do we as solo divers care a rats patoot what they think, use or do right or wrong? I think they intimidate some divers and thus the controversy. Trust me, I am not intimidated, I grew beyond that decades ago. I can dive as a team and when I do I Do It Right as the team requires and strive to be a great team member and when I am solo--I am that, silent, invisible, blending into the undersea world, you don't even know I am there---solo-- I Do It Right--for me--and I do it double hose.

N
Back to the future, back to double hose

 

[dugout]

Nemrod;

I think I agree... I'm not sure... Anyway this question and thread originated from questions I had after reading the thread, "SOLO Gear & DIR Set Up". Nothing in the thread addressed negative safety aspects of long hose air sharing with strangers.
To many solo doesn't mean anything more than diving without a designated buddy. This doesn't mean they are totally isolated from all other divers. When I travel south, even if I'm solo, I'm seldom alone. It is this interaction with strangers which is a concern.

I took supper, last night, with an old friend who has just retired from the Navy and his instructor duties in spec ops. He had a very interesting comment, which I'll paraphrase and ad. He said that my summations were essentially correct but there was an advanced stage of training which is only offered to the elite, of the elite, of the elite which was, to coin a phrase, "An Army of One". Yes, after all the *Team* training, and as needed, the best of the best are separated from their teams and enter into training for "solo missions". He said and I quote, "with the right training, with the right personnel, and mission specific, the most efficient team has the least number of members needed to produce the desired results and get home safely. Often this is one, after insertion"

 

[TomP]

I believe this thread belongs here because this is a SOLO issue. Even if we are diving with a buddy, we are solo diving when we render assistance to a stranger. We are all solo diver, in this respect. Many solo dives are in the vicinity of of other divers, right. The textbook buddy system can, and does, breakdown very quickly and then we are solo divers.

The epiphany that you may have been diving solo irrespective of the buddy system is one of the reasons some divers choose to become solo divers. Once that occurs, the only real gear configuration questions should be focused around self-sufficiency.

In the context of self-sufficiency the long hose and air sharing debates are irrelevant.

While I agree with Nemrod that the long hose traces its roots to air sharing, it has other advantages as well but even if it didn't it would, just like a vintage souble hose, be a perfectly acceptable personal preference.

I agree that the choice to render assistance introduces new risks but those are relative to emergency management and not solo diving.

 

[TomP]

Nemrod;
I think I agree... I'm not sure... Anyway this question and thread originated from questions I had after reading the thread, "SOLO Gear & DIR Set Up". Nothing in the thread addressed negative safety aspects of long hose air sharing with strangers.
To many solo doesn't mean anything more than diving without a designated buddy. This doesn't mean they are totally isolated from all other divers. When I travel south, even if I'm solo, I'm seldom alone. It is this interaction with strangers which is a concern.

Okay, I think I understand your perspective a bit better now and my view is almost the opposite of yours.
I generally dive solo off of commercial dive boats or in one of the local quarries so there are always other divers around. From a solo diving perspective they are only relevant to the extent that i have to consider if/how they may impact my dive plan and would certainly not be a consideration in gear configuration.
Further, to the extent you decide to render assistance in an emergency situation you are no longer diving solo because you then incur some obligation the other diver and accept the attendant risks.

I took supper, last night, with an old friend who has just retired from the Navy and his instructor duties in spec ops. He had a very interesting comment, which I'll paraphrase and ad. He said that my summations were essentially correct but there was an advanced stage of training which is only offered to the elite, of the elite, of the elite which was, to coin a phrase, "An Army of One". Yes, after all the *Team* training, and as needed, the best of the best are separated from their teams and enter into training for "solo missions". He said and I quote, "with the right training, with the right personnel, and mission specific, the most efficient team has the least number of members needed to produce the desired results and get home safely. Often this is one, after insertion"

Dugout - this is why I'd love nothing more than to remove the term 'mission' from the diving vocabulary. My missions go something like this:
1) have fun diving
2) return alive
3) don't get sea sick
Caveats: Omit #3 for quarry dives. Failing #2 learn from my mistake. ohh wait...
[/QUOTE]

 

[dugout]

this is why I'd love nothing more than to remove the term 'mission' from the diving vocabulary. My missions go something like this:
1) have fun diving
2) return alive
3) don't get sea sick
Caveats: Omit #3 for quarry dives. Failing #2 learn from my mistake. ohh wait...

[/quote]

Me too! Tom, You can dive with me anytime... Yes, I feel all gear choices should be based upon personal comfort and safety, solo, or with the buddy system. I dive a simple 1st, and single second stage, rig most of the time, solo. I don't even have a SPG. My conservative profiles are always designed, less than 80 feet, and allow for a CESA, end of story. I have done many and won't hesitate to do the next one should the situation dictate it. I'm learning some more modern concepts regarding ascent rates and adding a pony so this may change. However, I accept the fact that I may be responding to another's OOA situation. In these situations I rig a octopus second stage on a second 28" hose. This is what I'm comfortable with. Again, my air, my rules. I am not damming the long hose for everyone. I just asked the question based upon the OOA experiences I have witnessed. Long hoses would have complicated them. Without releasing the wraps I would suspect one could still maintain face to face control, which is what I preferred.
Yes, one must be comfortable with their gear choices.

 

[ArcticDiver]

Good Grief folks! Does it really matter where a good idea comes from? Have we lost perspective on why we dive; to have fun? Are we lemmings? Or, are we able to look at different options and make a personal decision that best suits each of our styles?

Define what you mean by "Solo Diving". In my case I define it as being far enough from other divers they cannot reasonably come to my assistance in case of an emergency. That includes the typical resort diving gaggle. So, I can be by myself miles from another diver. Or, I can be 50 yards from another diver. Both, to me, are Solo Dives.

Then lay out the reasons why your gear is configured in any particular way. Look at other people's setups. Then decide not based on where the idea comes from; but how it applies to you.

I posted why I use a long hose. I do it for the reasons mentioned. Everyone should be able to post a similar list of reasons why they do, or do not, use a long hose. Same with every other piece of gear carried underwater.

My decision may not be your decision. But everyone should have an analytical reason for what they do.

 

[Nemrod]

"I am not damming the long hose for everyone. I just asked the question based upon the OOA experiences I have witnessed. Long hoses would have complicated them. Without releasing the wraps I would suspect one could still maintain face to face control, which is what I preferred."

The "wraps" you speak off--DIR the hose is properly routed going right from the first stage, then under the arm stowing under the can light on the right hip and then travels up and around over the left shoulder and then behind the neck finally reaching the mouth. This is the primary. The alternate is bungeed at the neck. This is DIR--DIR is rigid--it has a guru who decides these things and you can do it different but then you are not DIR. The OOA team member takes the long hose primary from donating diver and the donating diver dips his head down and takes the bungeed alternate into his mouth. Some people feel that "other advantages" of the long hose is that it is more streamlined in that it does not have that loop sticking out to your right side. I accomplish this by routing under my arm with a 40 inch hose but I am not stuck on it as being optimum yet.

My belief is that an optimum configuration occurs when you have the miniumum amount of gear needed to succesfully complete the dive. If it is solo then hauling around gear for a non existent buddy is not optimum and adds complication.

I am a mimimalist. Hog is supposed to be minimalist but actually in fact it is very gear intensive, when I use the term minimalism especially appplied to solo then I really mean it.

Double hose DA Aqua Master, SeaVue spg, safety sausage and finger spool, large (sharp and pointy) knife, watch, compass, depth guage. Nothing else. Below 60/80 feet I clip a buddy bottle of 20 cf to my left D ring and left hip D ring. (the good thing about a 20 cf Luxfer bottle is that it is essentially neutral)

Should I encounter a stranger in need of air then they better be up on buddy breathing otherwise, they are sol.

N
NAVED 111

 

[TomP]

To Arcticdiver's point, I spun up a separate thread - Doing it Solo - for active solo divers to define what they mean by solo diving and present any views in context.

 

[dugout]

Nemrod;

Dude!, Shake off that SPG, swap the DH Aqua Master for a nice modern simple Cyklon 300, and I'm right there with ya!!!

HEY!!! Whats that belt clip by your left arm???????????
That ain't Hog :no ......... Hmmmmmmm.... I'm telling Bill and you're going to be in big trouble.