Question O2 Splitoff from "ScubaPro G260 or S620Ti?"

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EricSm

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This thread was split off from Question - ScubaPro G260 or S620Ti?

Hi! I am finally biting the bullet and investing in a good regulator. I’m already set on buying the MK19 EVO. I’m going back and forth on the second stage option: G260 or S620Ti? I’ve seen a general preference for the G260 but I’m worried about the bulkiness and the weight of it. Is jaw fatigue actually a thing? Can I get opinions on how important regulator size is?

I’d also like to hear all the general pros and cons on the two regulators!

If I were to go with the G260, I think I’ll be buying the MK19 EVO BT + G260 Carbon BT bundle.

FYI: I’m a petite woman hence the concern. Budget is not an issue and I won’t be diving in extreme cold (at least in the near future).
Not sure if you intent to do any technical diving in the future. The S620Ti has a Titanium inlet tube. Titanium is not compatible with 100% O2 beyond 2 atmospheres (207 kPa). You should use a specific O2 regulator for an accelerated decompression tank containing 100% O2. A second stage operates at more than 2 atm always (when the tank valve is open). Titanium is an excellent material for seawater corrosion resistance, especially Grade 5, but it shouldn't be used in highly enriched O2 systems.
Another more practical factor if you may do technical diving in the future is the G260 allows you to switch the side of the regulator the hose feeds in. Why is this important? If you get into side mount diving (tank on each side) or rebreather diving in the future, you'll have a tank on your left side running roughly armpit to hip and you would need to have a regulator with the hose running to your left out of your mouth (with the regulator right side up ;) ).
 
Someone give me first-hand evidence of oxygen-related damage to a titanium SECOND stage. Any evidence. Anything at all.
Asking for a friend...
 
Someone give me first-hand evidence of oxygen-related damage to a titanium SECOND stage. Any evidence. Anything at all.
Asking for a friend...

But it sounds so profound and terrifying, so it must be true...
 
Not sure if you intent to do any technical diving in the future. The S620Ti has a Titanium inlet tube. Titanium is not compatible with 100% O2 beyond 2 atmospheres (207 kPa). You should use a specific O2 regulator for an accelerated decompression tank containing 100% O2. A second stage operates at more than 2 atm always (when the tank valve is open). Titanium is an excellent material for seawater corrosion resistance, especially Grade 5, but it shouldn't be used in highly enriched O2 systems.
Another more practical factor if you may do technical diving in the future is the G260 allows you to switch the side of the regulator the hose feeds in. Why is this important? If you get into side mount diving (tank on each side) or rebreather diving in the future, you'll have a tank on your left side running roughly armpit to hip and you would need to have a regulator with the hose running to your left out of your mouth (with the regulator right side up ;) ).

Why would someone go at ppO2 as high as 2atm?
 
Why would someone go at ppO2 as high as 2atm?

@EricSm just to clarify - I agree with most of your post, just the 2atm clashes with my knowledge... And I don't see why anyone would ever be at a ppO2 higher than 1.6. However, in my understanding, the problem is out of the water, not under... Right?
 
Why would someone go at ppO2 as high as 2atm?
1 atm is 14.6 psi. 1 atm of air has .21 *14.6=3 psi of O2. If you have 98% o2 in accelerated bailout bottle and the second stage regulator is at 160 psi you have 11 atm of pressure or .98 x 11 = 10.78 atm of oxygen at the second stage regulator. That isn't in the loop, that is at the regulator.
 
1 atm is 14.6 psi. 1 atm of air has .21 *14.6=3 psi of O2. If you have 98% o2 in accelerated bailout bottle and the second stage regulator is at 160 psi you have 11 atm of pressure or .98 x 11 = 10.78 atm of oxygen at the second stage regulator. That isn't in the loop, that is at the regulator.

Makes total sense. I am curious about nitrox. You mentioned that titanium is usually NOT considered stable when used with pure oxygen at a pressure higher than 2atm. But what about ppO2 in mixed gas? I know some particles and oils could act as catalysts for the titanium oxidation, making the reaction faster and exothermic -> dangerous. This is why we use special greases for oxygen-compatibility.

But even with a simple nx32, the ppo2 in your example would be pretty high: 3,5 ATM. Are oxy-compatible lubricants enough to make titanium regulators safe? If yes, how?

PS I know there are rules about oxygen compatibility which define the maximum % of oxy in a mix - but I don't remember them now, and also I am more interested in the chemistry here
 
Someone give me first-hand evidence of oxygen-related damage to a titanium SECOND stage. Any evidence. Anything at all.
Asking for a friend...
Here is a technical report.
NASA TR R-180 Reactivity of Titanium with Oxygen
The other technical report, one of the authors is Chaffey (of Grissom White and Chaffey Apollo 1 catastrophe).
The report states that in 100% gaseous oxygen they needed at least 350 psi for combustion to occur statically, but once it started, everything (metal etc) was consumed. At pressures less than 350 psi ignition was caused by one or more of the following factors:
◦Particle impact - the acceleration of “dirt” particles in the gas stream impacting a bend or T in the flowstream. You get acceleration of gas and entrained particles at the outlet of an orifice or regulator...

◦Adiabatic compression - O-rings can combust as a result of rapid pressurization, much like a diesel engine works. The o-ring then causes metal tubing and component to combust

◦Mechanical impact - Materials may spontaneously combust when they reach their autoignition temperature or pressure. Tables are readilly available with the autoignition temperatures and pressures even via google.

◦Contamination by hydrocarbons – hydrocarbons + oxygen creates a shock explosive

◦Flow induced localized heating

If you go to the Wendell Hull and Associates (no affiliation to them except I sat through their 2 day O2 and H2 safety and system design seminar) website for more information. They have lots of material from the Gemini and Apollo days when NASA learned about the materials, system design and operation of oxygen systems. They (NASA) built a test facility in White Sands, NM and ignited lots of stuff in the process of developing standards including Titanium to develop the standards.
The standard "SAFETY STANDARD FOR OXYGEN AND OXYGEN SYSTEMS" NSS 1740.15 Jan 1996 - Material Selection - 303 Metallic Materials - f Restricted Alloys - "The use of certain metals in oxygen systems must be restricted (NASA JSC SE-R-0006C latest revision). These include the following:
(1) Titanium. Of the various titanium alloys tested (alpha, AB, beta) and reported all showed very high sensitivity to mechanical impact in oxygen (Key and Riehl 1964). Titanium must not be used with LOX at any pressure or with GOX at oxyfen pressures above 207 kPa (30 psi). Tests have indicated that titanium, alpha titanium and alpha 2 titanium alloys can be ignited and sustain combustion at oxygen pressures as low as 7 kPa (1 psi). Frictional heating test conducted on titanium and titanium alloys indicated that the Pv product for ignition is extremely low (see Table B-2, Appendix B). Recent tests at WSTF indicate titanium and its alloys can also be ignited in air in friction heating tests.
Titanium allows must be avoided in storage or test facility systems since titanium is impact sensitive in oxygen.

I tried to attach the Safety Standard for Ox and Ox systems file but it is just over 10 MB. If you google it you can find it.

Anyway, there you go from 1965 to 1996 to present titanium doesn't belong in oxygen systems. An abundance of testing has shown this. There are plenty of good alloys that play nice in O2 and seawater like Monel K-500, Nickel alloys, Hastelloy, etc etc.
 

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I’m way out of depth here, and this is a great write up (and I don’t intend to use Ti for any o2 applications, I’m sold 😅)
But, I wanted to follow up on this 2nd atage barrel part:
Flow induced localized heating
Wouldn’t the (relative) IP of 9-10bar at 2nd stage inlet, reducing to ambient at the mouthpiece (ie relative 1 atm) cause immense adiabatic cooling?

Probably it’s (part of) why Ti regs get away with (recreational) nitrox

(My brain is trying to brain late at night, it aint pretty)
 
I heard that the titanium parts used in the regulators are finished/anodised hence non-combustible - is that correct?
 

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