Number one cause of diving fatalities?

[kelpqwest]

My response is correct.
I am writing here because 1. conventional wisdom is to wear too much weight. 2. I am informing new divers that the conventional wisdom is wrong.
The citation is Diving medicine, chapter 34 "Why divers die".
Since I have used scuba since 1964 when BCs were not common, weight management was always very important. Air management was also very important because I was scuba diving when there were no submersible pressure gauges, just a J-valve (pull it down and get 500lbs of air).

56% of the critical events involved a diver running out of air (i.e. not watching his gauge).

The correct weight is what is neutral at the surface. Diving down is easy, you use your fins to accomplish this.

The other reason is related to physics; in locations like Carmel CA you may actually be swimming around against surge and the more weight you wear=more mass you have, which is just a drag on your ability to propel yourself around.

The reason you will die during scuba diving is most likely you ran low on air, and having too much weight exacerbates this problem.

I have saved someone who didn't like ditching his lead which was OK, I was neutral at the surface and so just inflated and swam us both back to safety. This happened in Monterey, CA.

The stories of people drowning who have had their facemasks or regulators knocked off by their buddy are anecdotes I read of dead divers, and I haven't the citations because they're random but stuck in my head.

Divers: DO NOT stop looking at your air gauge, and DO NOT wear so much weight you are only neutral with an inflated BC. DO NOT "dive" feet first like the "experts" may have told you to do.

 

[boulderjohn]

It's a serious comment.

We're not teaching divers to dump their weights.

We're teaching divers to keep their weights because they might damage the coral and will be charged $100 or something by the rental shop to replace them.

Once again, do you have any evidence whatsoever that people who needed to dump weights because of a safety concern are not doing so because of the fear they will be charged for them, or are you making it up?

And who isn't teaching divers to dump weights? I don't know the standards of all the 100+ certification agencies, but the one I teach for requires it to be taught.

 

[kelpqwest]

I have always doubted some of the "conventional wisdom." I had good reason to.

I was taught buddy breathing at a time (1972) when people had just one regulator (second stage).
This was an entirely absurd process which led to many double drownings. I told the instructor "buddy breathing in a pool is the last time I will ever do this underwater."

Why did PADI still teach people to buddy breathe with ONE regulator (second stage) until 2014 in some "advanced" course? Because they're wrong and only saw the light in 2014. Think this through, PADI took until 2014 to figure out something I knew was wrong in 1972.

I sometimes question even having an extra second stage regulator. To play devil's advocate: If you are at 90 ft, you have 700 Lbs. and someone runs out of air because he did not watch his gauge, will you share your precious air with him? Will you look at your gauge and think "Wait a minute; he should do a free ascent."

The answer is : maybe depending on your feeling at that moment. I may for example think I need my 700 lbs, to get back to the surface , i.e. live another day.

 

[kelpqwest]

BoulderJohn, I have no idea why people do not dump weights. I haven't asked any dead people this question.

The fact is people wearing too much weight constituted 40% of dead divers. 90% of dead divers had weight still attached to their corpses.

Why this happens is conjecture, I was just summarizing the chapter on this subject (why divers die).

The readers who see my posts hopefully will recognize that the top 2 priorities for them scuba diving are:
1. watching their air 2. weight management.

 

[boulderjohn]

I was taught buddy breathing at a time (1972) when people had just one regulator (second stage).
This was an entirely absurd process which led to many double drownings. I told the instructor "buddy breathing in a pool is the last time I will ever do this underwater."

Why did PADI still teach people to buddy breathe with ONE regulator (second stage) until 2014 in some "advanced" course? Because they're wrong and only saw the light in 2014. Think this through, PADI took until 2014 to figure out something I knew was wrong in 1972.

Buddy breathing was not part of the PADI curriculum when I was certified nearly 20 years ago. It was an optional skill for OW then, and I doubt many people taught it, for the reasons you cited. It was dropped entirely after that.

As for the Advanced Course that taught it until it was dropped until they law the light in 2014, I have no idea what you are talking about. The only case I know of is the Divemaster course, and it is still part of the course today. It is not there as a lifesaving method, though. It is part of a requirement that two people exchange gear in the pool while sharing a regulator. The purpose of that is imply to demonstrate real comfort dealing with unusual situations under water. It is not being taught as a skill to be practiced in real diving, just as exchanging your equipment is not something you would do in real diving.

 

[2airishuman]

Once again, do you have any evidence whatsoever that people who needed to dump weights because of a safety concern are not doing so because of the fear they will be charged for them, or are you making it up?

There's lots of evidence that people die in accidents that could have been mitigated by dumping weights. I think we're in agreement on that.

So, why don't people dump weights?

And who isn't teaching divers to dump weights? I don't know the standards of all the 100+ certification agencies, but the one I teach for requires it to be taught.

Well, I went through my PADI OWD course without ever actually dumping weights. Oh sure, I took off my weight belt and held it in my hand, once in the pool, and IIRC twice in the ocean. But that's not dumping weights. The focus of the activity, and the motions, are different. And the result is different, because your buoyancy doesn't change.

My instructors used phrases like, "hold the belt in your hand, don't actually drop it because then we'll have to swim down and get it," and "hold the belt in your hand, don't drop it or you'll damage the coral."

I've practiced actual weight dumps since then.

I believe that people are conditioned not to dump weights by a wide variety of factors. I think that cost plays a role in this conditioning. I consider this point of view a hypothesis.

 

[Storker]

I have no idea why people do not dump weights.

Personal opinion: Gear - including weights - cost money, so people are generally reluctant to dump it. When people really realize that they have to dump to stay afloat and survive, the situation might well have spiralled so far out of control that either they're in full-blown panic or it's too difficult to dump.

Our national Diving Federation reimburses any member of an affiliated club if they choose to dump weights, to fight the "but... it's expensive" reaction. The only thing you need to submit is a receipt for the new weight belt/pockets and a brief report.

 

[boulderjohn]

I sometimes question even having an extra second stage regulator. To play devil's advocate: If you are at 90 ft, you have 700 Lbs. and someone runs out of air because he did not watch his gauge, will you share your precious air with him? Will you look at your gauge and think "Wait a minute; he should do a free ascent."

So you believe that person will think, "Hey, that guy does not have an alternative regulator. He must want me to do a free ascent from 90 feet instead of using an alternate. OK, then. Off I go!" You don't believe he will think, "I'm out of air and that sucker has a working regulator in his mouth. I'm taking it!"

And as for me, I won't be at 90 feet with only 700 PSI because I do watch my gauge, but if I did find myself in that situation, yes, I will share my air, and we will get safely to the surface.

 

[boulderjohn]

There's lots of evidence that people die in accidents that could have been mitigated by dumping weights. I think we're in agreement on that.

So, why don't people dump weights?



Well, I went through my PADI OWD course without ever actually dumping weights. Oh sure, I took off my weight belt and held it in my hand, once in the pool, and IIRC twice in the ocean. But that's not dumping weights. The focus of the activity, and the motions, are different. And the result is different, because your buoyancy doesn't change.

My instructors used phrases like, "hold the belt in your hand, don't actually drop it because then we'll have to swim down and get it," and "hold the belt in your hand, don't drop it or you'll damage the coral."
.

If you got certified in the last few years, the instructors violated standards. The weights must be dropped, and the student must experience the difference in buoyancy that comes as a result. All the instructor has to do is have his or her hands on the weights ready to grab when you drop them. They will only drop a few inches, and you will have the same experience as you would if they were dropped to the bottom.

I wrote about why people don't drop weights in that other thread. There are many reasons for fatalities, and dropping weights is not a factor in the overwhelming majority of them. For example, in the most common fatality event, if someone passes out from a sudden cardiac event, they do not have the opportunity to do so. You can't drop your weights when you are already unconscious or already dead. In response to a discussion of this ilk several years ago, I went through the descriptions of fatalities in two years of DAN fatality reports. In each year, I found only a handful of cases in which dumping weights MIGHT have made a difference in the outcome of the incident. I included in that total any incidents in which there was even a remote possibility of a different outcome. In over 90% of the cases, the fact that the diver did not drop weights was irrelevant to the outcome--it would have made no difference.

Somehow people get the idea that all fatalities could be prevented by dropping weights. Believe me when I tell you that removing a heart attack victim's weights is not a viable alternative to CPR and an AED.

 

[2airishuman]

This is easily one of the most inane comments made on SB since I joined. You're just making stuff up as the conversation progresses.

You must have joined recently because there's all kinds of stuff on here that's more inane.

1. Teaching students to drop weights IS part of the curriculum.
2. Not dropping one's weight to protect corals? Seriously? When your life is endangered? I've never heard such obnoxious claptrap.

In an emergency, people behave the way they are trained. They are not trained to drop weights. They are trained to pretend to drop weights and warned to not actually do it except in an actual emergency.

3. Does anyone really think about the $30 (not $100 - you mentioned coral hence tropical waters) you may forfeit instead of losing your life? (Shops charge $5/lb).

Whatever. You're leaving out the belt or pockets and of course it depends how much lead.

People don't think rationally in an emergency. They do what they've already been conditioned to do. If you condition them to think about coral and the problem of retrieving or abandoning the weights, they won't ditch them.