Not "technically oriented" enough for Advanced Scuba?

[HowardE]

Tek 2 Tek has been on the board for about a year. It was designed as a more private location for Technical divers to hash out more technical topics in an area that is for the most part separated from the masses who sometimes throw unnecessary statements into the mix.

(No offense to those who aren't trained in technical diving)

 

[Scott L]

Tek 2 Tek has been on the board for about a year. It was designed as a more private location for Technical divers to hash out more technical topics in an area that is for the most part separated from the masses who sometimes throw unnecessary statements into the mix.

(No offense to those who aren't trained in technical diving)

Can one gain access without a black mask?

 

[DaleC]

I do not define advanced recreational diving as "baby tech". I see it as diving that takes place within the context of a recreational setting but utilizing techniques or equipment that is beyond the basic OW rec level. Because rec diving does not involve real or artificial overheads or great depths there is the ability for divers to employ a wide variety of styles successfully. This doesn't mean that a modern tech answer doesn't have it's place in the advanced forum but I think it should be seen as just one of a number of options; not the preeminent one.

The variety of options available at this level of diving far exceed those afforded by the current technical models. Technical diving by it's nature narrows the options one can consider but advanced rec diving does not and I think it's artificial and limiting to suggest it does.

I do not see advanced rec diving as a way point between OW and tech and at this stage of my diving I very deliberately consider myself an advanced rec diver for several reasons:

1. While I generally confine myself to recreational limits, I routinely employ concepts that go beyond the OW scope. Using two EAN mixes, diving independant doubles, not using an SPG BC or conventional regulator, solo diving, solo altitude diving... blah blah blah. I don't think it's pompous to consider myself advanced from the rec norm in that regard.

2. I see a great deal of 0-hero tech divers post here and have even felt the pull myself but I don't want to dive beyond my innate abilities so I choose to spend some time at the advanced rec level. There's a lot to learn here via direct experience and I am still learning.

3. My economic and family life dictates that I would be a very poor tech diver anyways (literally). I would rather find a place where I feel validated and successful than to spend my diving career feeling stressed, financially or timewise. Advanced recreational diving works for me and I love it. I don't sit around wishing I could grow up and be a "real" diver.

4. I don't like standardization. I'm a creative guy and I like to tinker and advanced recreational diving allows me to do that. By restricting depth and duration I can explore concept and configuration.


I started this thread (indirectly) by stating there are a large number of tech forums in existance here already where the tech perspective can be talked to death. All I want is a forum where someone with my perspective can feel at home (and not an abberation or annomoly). I don't mind sharing it with a tech perspective but I don't want to feel my opinion is by default substandard because of it.

That's my 2CW. Now, if Pete wants to create a subforum called "Alternative Diving Concepts" and not hide it somewhere in the backwaters, I'll shut up and go away (to it).

 

[Slamfire]

Ah yes, the proverbial body bags...

- You're gonna die...
- Well, so will you... and everybody else... eventually

Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back. Marcus Aurelius

There was a time when there were only scuba divers. No advanced, tech, nor any uber super duper exclusive cliques. And then, scuba training started getting more and more commercialized. Training got broken down into smaller and smaller bits. The bits got flamboyant names, that, more than providing an accurate description, aimed at making more sales. A line was drawn in order to keep scuba as a sustainable business that was not destroyed by hordes of dying, poorly trained novices. The novices and the masses were relegated to the 130', NDL, no helium, no overheads side of the line. Those with alleged mythical dedication, skills and talent could after many courses and training cross the line into the ranks of the technical divers...

Are we to be blindly lead into this commercially distorted worldview? There is no reason why I need to comply with it. There's only scuba divers. There are different dives. As a scuba diver, it is in your health's best interest to be prepared to handle the rigors of the dives you chose to undertake. Is the commercially distorted path the only way you can become prepared to handle these dives? Certainly not. Do you absolutely need a certain instructor or agency telling you what your limitations really are? Of course not. But be very aware that the cost of underestimating you own limitations can be very steep.

I'll keep doing my dives, expanding my skills, and my knowledge on the subject matter. I'll try to the best of my abilities and in accordance to my tolerance levels to manage the risks involved in this activity. I'll dive alone or with old or new friends, irrespective of their suit colors or the acronyms in their C-cards. Plain and simple, I just like being in the water.

My favorite dive buddy has never had a C-card and knows nothing about all these labels we use these days. He's my Dad.

 

[DevonDiver]

I do not define advanced recreational diving as "baby tech". I see it as diving that takes place within the context of a recreational setting but utilizing techniques or equipment that is beyond the basic OW rec level.

So a Fish ID course is 'Advanced Diving'? How about a PPB course?

OW is entry level. Why the leap to say that everything beyond entry level is 'advanced diving'?

Because rec diving does not involve real or artificial overheads or great depths there is the ability for divers to employ a wide variety of styles successfully. This doesn't mean that a modern tech answer doesn't have it's place in the advanced forum but I think it should be seen as just one of a number of options; not the preeminent one.

Fair point...but.

The PADI system really doesn't do 'advanced diving'. I started off in the BSAC system. That has a 'advanced diver' level (CMAS 3*). It doesn't correspond to anything within the PADI system of education. A BSAC 'advanced diver' does deco, runs expeditions and trips, sorts out the boat etc etc It's an impressive qualification..but it's not tech.

Now... this isn't to compare agencies. But it does illustrate what 'Advanced Diving' could be. Sadly, agencies like PADI and SSI don't have an equivalent level in their systems... which is why so many divers get confused.

It's why the Advanced Diving forum here so often ends up as a dogpile.

1. While I generally confine myself to recreational limits, I routinely employ concepts that go beyond the OW scope. Using two EAN mixes, diving independant doubles, not using an SPG BC or conventional regulator, solo diving, solo altitude diving... blah blah blah. I don't think it's pompous to consider myself advanced from the rec norm in that regard.

Multi-gas dives is actually 'tech'. See the course structure for the DSAT Tec 40

Solo diving... it's not anything... a limbo activity. PADI would deny it was recreational... but then many of the tech agencies would deny it was technical too. TDI list it within their recreational program... so I guess that is the best definition to be had

I started this thread (indirectly) by stating there are a large number of tech forums in existance here already where the tech perspective can be talked to death. All I want is a forum where someone with my perspective can feel at home (and not an abberation or annomoly). I don't mind sharing it with a tech perspective but I don't want to feel my opinion is by default substandard because of it.

With luck...your wish will be granted soon

Now, if Pete wants to create a subforum called "Alternative Diving Concepts" and not hide it somewhere in the backwaters, I'll shut up and go away (to it).

Alternative diving? Will that include joss sticks, tie-dye wetsuits and chanting?

 

[DaleC]

Memo: The dive world does not revolve around your commercial PADI view of it. There in lies most of your perceptual problem in this case. Be assured I never measure my diving activities by how they are scaled in the PADI (or any other) syllibus.

The dogpiles occur because some people simply cannot discuss a topic with denigrating the other persons viewpoint, like the last lines in your post above. I would have hoped that in the feedback forum, and being a MOD, you could have resisted that.

 

[DevonDiver]

Memo: The dive world does not revolve around your commercial PADI view of it. There in lies most of your perceptual problem in this case. Be assured I never measure my diving activities by how they are scaled in the PADI (or any other) syllibus.

Firstly, it isn't "my" view. I have already stated that I started with BSAC. I've trained with 6 different agencies and hold instructor ratings with 4 of them.

However, the vast majority of the dive world does revolve around PADI. That's a fact of life. Most of the membership of this board are PADI trained.

(memo: I said world, not USA)

You might have a different view of advanced diving... it's actually probably very simular to mine ... but others don't.... and THAT is the root of the problem. The board has to represent the majority consensus.

The dogpiles occur because some people simply cannot discuss a topic with denigrating the other persons viewpoint, ...

Yes and no. We have a Green Zone...and any member can opt to restrict their posting to that area if they want to avoid critique. The forum rules for the Advanced Diving forum allow a more robust debate to occur. This is typical given the level of diving being debated.

The problems occur when people who are not advanced divers, wish to engage in advanced diving debates. They don't understand how criticism forms an essential part in the progressive development of skills, practices and procedures. That's why the Special Forum Rules clearly spelled that out. Who's to blame for not reading them?

As I said in my last post... the Advanced Diving forum is being re-evaluated with a goal of ending the conflicts that naturally occur there - because so many people view the term 'advanced' differently.

like the last lines in your post above. I would have hoped that in the feedback forum, and being a MOD, you could have resisted that.

Ok...just to be clear... that was a JOKE. It wasn't meant to belittle you, or undermine your arguement. It's sunny here in Manila. I was sat on my balcony watching a glorious sunset over Manila Bay, sipping a fresh brewed coffee. :cool2: I was in a good mood...chilled out... having a good day. You may not be having such a good day...and for that I apologise and commiserate.... but please... learn how to spot a friendly joke.

 

[DaleC]

Hey, why don't you (and a lot of others) stopped trying to judge who is and isn't an advanced diver. No ones paying you for an instructors evaluation here.

I think MOD's should either take off their MOD hats if they are participating in a hot thread or, act as a MOD and not get personally involved.

You might not have noticed but I'm actually pretty pissed off about all this (which is a rarity for me). I don't post often in the feedback forums looking for a joke.

And bull Sh_t that every sub forum on the board has to represent the majority. Cave divers are a minority but they get their own subforum. DIR divers are a minority but they get two subforums where they are allowed to mod out anything that goes against their phylosophy (which I agree with). Solo divers, majority? Vintage divers, majority?

I'm weary of participating in threads that never get off the ground because of the oh so predictable nitpicking and redirection. For example: Someone asks about independant doubles in a recreational setting, only to have the usual suspects show up to try and persuade the participants to switch to isolation manifolds. Then the discussion turns to stating side mount is the best way to dive independant doubles and then cave divers post into a rec thread to say that reg switches should be made every 2-300 psi and advocating the rule of thirds so you have the most gas in case of failure at max penetration. Then they are reminded this is a rec situation and they reply "why are you diving sidemount in a rec situation?" "Dive singles with a dedicated buddy!". People can't have a discussion about ID's recreationally without constantly dealing with comments by others who don't even dive them in that setting or have any intention of doing so.

Here's another example: A discussion about inverted cylinders. Again, piles of derogatory and plain bare azzed incorrect info and assertions by people who have never even strapped them on. The BS was so thick in that one that I actually configured a set just to add something factual (which is where the BS was discovered). I also had to post over in a British forum because no inverted divers want to post on SB because naysayers invade every thread that doesn't conform to their preset notion of how to dive.

I could go on but I think I've made my point.

There should be a place where we can talk about advanced ideas that fall outside of the (limited) tech or (commercialized) agency scopes without having to constantly defend them from people who have no other interest in them other than to denigrate. The BS makes it both onerous and disheartening. The board has done so in the past for contentious issues like solo, DIR and vintage diving.

Ultimately, this forum will take whatever direction it wants. I am just giving my perspective. It is really a self fullfilling notion. Turn the advanced rec forum into (yet) another tech oriented subforum and the concepts that fall outside of that won't be represented or expressed. Then you will be able to say "See, the majority of posters think our way".

Give recreational divers a place (moderated by someone sympathetic to the wider variety of methodologies and learning styles) to discuss concepts that fall beyond the basic level and discussions may evolve in a way that eventually encourages people to view SB as a place where their POV's will be considered at face value, in the context they are given.

I love the idea of an Alternative Diving Concepts forum myself. I bet it would soon become one of the more intriguing and thought provoking spots on SB and tech divers would be logging on anonymously, just to see what was being considered.

 

[DaleC]

I've spent so much time focussed on one poster I thought I'd reply to some other posts. Feel free to respond or not, I respect your opinions either way.

Advanced rec diving is not quite the same as multi stage diving (that is, unless you like carrying stages around just for the fun of it), actually, besides being underwater & hopefully breathing while at it, they have very little in common. It's a brutal simplification, but pretty much there.

During the past several pages examples of where to place the SPG were given, and in the rec world, it's pretty much a moot debate, just put it wherever you like it in the end should you like to do so. Nobody got the chair for doing it wrong.

However, in the tech world, as you said environmentally narrow, there's a pretty good reason to do something in a certain & defined manner. And if people ask why these things are done in certain way & get the answer with an explanation - which they don't like/accept, who's to blame? Them or people executing tech dives and living to write about them here?

The internet is a nasty place. If somebody gives you an honest advice in your best interest, no matter how it is written, I would appreciate it.

Anyway, there's also a saying about arguing on the internet, but I'll not go into that...

I agree that if someone asks a tech question they should get a tech answer. I often post questions into the tech forums and always appreciate the (sincere) replies I get there.
The problem here is that in many cases, no one is asking for a tech answer. The question posed really is "who gets to drive the discussion in this forum"? Tech divers or rec divers. I don't think a non DIR mindset should guide that forum nor a non solo mindset that forum.

Dale, wouldn't you agree that someone who is carrying double stages and bottles on a leash is well into the technical diving realm? You'll notice nobody eviscerated the original poster over his question . . . it's just this guy with the double stages who says he can't check his spg if it's on the left.

Lynne, I always like your style of posting. I won't defend or not defend the posters statements (don't know him) but really, he was just stating his SPG positioning and why he did it. Look how the thread deteriorated after the dogpiling occurred. One person could have dealt with that easily. If we could have just said "one persons opinion; move along" perhaps the thread would have developed into something more constructive. Surely that would be more valuable than the same old mudfest. I find it very odd that, at the advanced level, we talk about the need for ego reduction, situational awareness and methodical solution oriented thinking yet; so often it doesn't make it through to our communications with each other on the board.

With this being a point that comes up I have to wonder if the forum names themselves aren't the problem.

"new divers and those considering diving" is a very nice descriptive name. But then we have "basic" -- which seems to be pretty much the same thing, and "advanced" and in the practical sense of delineating which topics go where, there doesn't seem to be much difference.

If recreational diving is recreational diving, then the delineation between basic and advanced seems to be very artificial and without a more clear break between them there's always going to be people posting in the "wrong" forum on that basis. The move to "technical" diving is pretty straight forward -- are you moving into doing planned decompression stops? Then you're doing technical diving. Simple, clean easy definition.

So is the "issue" here just having one too many forums for general recreational diving questions and discussions?

I would go along with that if it weren't for the problems that would arise when some advanced ideas were dicussed in Basic Scuba. Even there (or especially there) the MOD's would probably feel compelled to limit discussion for the sake of the newer divers so they wouldn't be led astray or the attitude of standardization, agency standards and "beginning with the end in mind" would be used to rebut every alternative perspective. Look what happens to solo diving threads as an example: Stock answers, very little meaningful discussion, "take a course" (and ten pages of posts praising the benefits of the buddy system).

Ah yes, the proverbial body bags...

- You're gonna die...
- Well, so will you... and everybody else... eventually

Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back. Marcus Aurelius

There was a time when there were only scuba divers. No advanced, tech, nor any uber super duper exclusive cliques. And then, scuba training started getting more and more commercialized. Training got broken down into smaller and smaller bits. The bits got flamboyant names, that, more than providing an accurate description, aimed at making more sales. A line was drawn in order to keep scuba as a sustainable business that was not destroyed by hordes of dying, poorly trained novices. The novices and the masses were relegated to the 130', NDL, no helium, no overheads side of the line. Those with alleged mythical dedication, skills and talent could after many courses and training cross the line into the ranks of the technical divers...

Are we to be blindly lead into this commercially distorted worldview? There is no reason why I need to comply with it. There's only scuba divers. There are different dives. As a scuba diver, it is in your health's best interest to be prepared to handle the rigors of the dives you chose to undertake. Is the commercially distorted path the only way you can become prepared to handle these dives? Certainly not. Do you absolutely need a certain instructor or agency telling you what your limitations really are? Of course not. But be very aware that the cost of underestimating you own limitations can be very steep.

I'll keep doing my dives, expanding my skills, and my knowledge on the subject matter. I'll try to the best of my abilities and in accordance to my tolerance levels to manage the risks involved in this activity. I'll dive alone or with old or new friends, irrespective of their suit colors or the acronyms in their C-cards. Plain and simple, I just like being in the water.

My favorite dive buddy has never had a C-card and knows nothing about all these labels we use these days. He's my Dad.

It must be something in the water, or we are comparing wetnotes during dives.

 

[The Chairman]

Can one gain access without a black mask?

We're working on making access a bit more open. Still, it will be tech only.