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If I want to go into a cave and swim until my little tanks empty there's NO LAW to stop me. The police cannot even stop me because there is NO LAW against it. and you.. YOU sir, have NO right, not an obligation, not a right, no reason at all, to do so.

Yeah, that's the argument the octopus kid used a few months back ... and now there's a process in place to change the law. And when it's changed, it won't just affect him ... it'll affect everybody.

That's the rub. When you do stupid things because you can ... because there's NO LAW preventing you from doing them ... the inevitable consequence is that pretty soon there will be. And then you'll be the first one to bitch about the "nanny state" (assuming you're alive to bitch about it) ... when in fact, it was irresponsible people's actions that created the need for the law in the first place.

Gets back to that responsibility thing you ignored last time I brought it up. You can choose to be responsible, in which case laws aren't needed. Or others can attempt to prevent you from being irresponsible, in which case the inevitable consequence is government intervention that restricts everyone. Personally, I'd think responsible behavior would be preferable ... especially in cases where significant safety risks are involved.

Just because something's legal doesn't mean it's the right thing to do ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 


A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

The discussion about the diver death in Florida has been merged with the thread in A&I. A trolling thread advocating unsafe diving practices has been removed, and all related responses. It should be noted that other similar posts have been permitted in the interest of allowing discussion and learning by others entering the thread. ScubaBoard feels that people attempting cave diving should do so with appropriate training as it is unsafe to do otherwise. Marg, ScubaBoard Senior Moderataor
 
edit: sorry that should have been the quote you quoted by tony... ". So if we were on the rifle or pistol range and you were trying to clear a jammed round, do you not think that it is right of me to grab the barrel and point it in a sake direction because you were too focused on the rifle and not noticing that you were pointing it a JamesK? (Sorry James).
"



Do you walk down the street and snatch cigarettes out of peoples mouths because they are unhealthy?

No. it's not creating any danger to me and besides, I am a Respiratory therapist and like having a job. So light them if you got them.

Do you see base jumpers and run cut their cords before they jump because their chutes might not open?

Again no risk to me and they should know what they are doing...they are trained and I am not.

Do you jump into race cars and plant your own foot on the brake because they are driving fast and might crash?

Again no risk to me and they should know what they are doing...they are trained and I am not.

Do you push fat people out of line at the grocery store because you think they are eating unhealthy?

No. It's not creating any danger to me other than it wearing me out doing CPR and besides, I am a Respiratory therapist and like have a job. So eat until you need a CPAP or BiPAP or trach. OBTW, I think that obese people suffer some profound discrimination. Case in point you just called them fat.

Do you break into houses and steal guns because people might shoot themselves?

Again no risk to me.

Just how far are you willing to go to push YOUR morals on someone else.

Depends. I only use my God given skills to ensure that someone does not do something to harm my family, my friends or myself to include our lifestyles.

If I want to go into a cave and swim until my little tanks empty there's NO LAW to stop me. The police cannot even stop me because there is NO LAW against it. and you.. YOU sir, have NO right, not an obligation, not a right, no reason at all, to do so.

Fla state parks do have laws and private landowners i.e. Ginnie do have rules.
and at the same time, I have no right to stop YOU from cave diving.

THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF A FREE COUNTRY.

No disagreement there! I hepled defend that right for 20 years in the Marine Corps.
 
THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF A FREE COUNTRY.

Yay, more good ol' boys mistaking freedom for a lack of responsibility. People are always constantly running around whatever free lands you want to name waving their flag of freedoms while stepping on those of others.

Here we go.
Do you walk down the street and snatch cigarettes out of peoples mouths because they are unhealthy?

Do you see base jumpers and run cut their cords before they jump because their chutes might not open?

Do you jump into race cars and plant your own foot on the brake because they are driving fast and might crash?

Do you push fat people out of line at the grocery store because you think they are eating unhealthy?

Do you break into houses and steal guns because people might shoot themselves?

Just how far are you willing to go to push YOUR morals on someone else.
-Cigarettes are a restricted item to children under the age of x in most countries because they're not responsible enough to make that choice. Those who do live under plenty of laws and regulation limiting their exposure to other people, of which is over a long term phase that may be reversed by removing yourself from their pollution.
-Base jumping is primarily illegal in any place where another person might be harmed. There are laws to charge offenders but frankly, if you're talking about unsuccessful jumps, well- they can't always learn from that lesson. They also have training. Those who aren't are seen in the same suicidal, inconsiderate light.
-Race car drivers have training and are on closed tracks. Those who aren't, are arrested. Street racing? The general populous follows speed laws in various areas such as city, highway and residential.
-Overweight people have complained that they don't know any better so now healthy nutrition is being pushed on everyone. 100 cal drinks and snacks, nutrition facts on packaging, etc.
-Outside of the United States and even in some states gun laws prohibit owners to have their guns unlocked. They must be kept in safes with trigger guards, specialized licenses are required to own firearms. As you can see, with the more and more school shootings that build up, like cave diving (go figure) law makers are slowly realizing maybe allowing these rights without tighter laws are unwise.

We're talking about cave diving, not walking down the street and yelling at a fat guy because one day he may be diabetic or find rolling out of bed or having sex a bit harder. This is something that even when you're properly trained you have a good chance of dying, each time you enter a cave. Those who are trained at least can say "I knew my choice". They know all the variables, all the ins and outs while trained, and still like race car drivers, they do it for some sort of other reason, the last thing they can say however is they didn't understand the risks and they didn't have the right to be there. At that point, they live and die amongst their peers in a location that is supposed to be restricted to anyone with common sense, and if not- improper training and experience. You may even have the experience, that's fine- but you'd have to admit to gathering it recklessly to be taking risks like that in some depressed state knowing that you may not come back. It's that or you didn't understand all the risks. As the lawyer you're trying to be, you obviously know without me saying that information, whether printed or digital isn't evaluated by law for accuracy. It can be as inaccurate as it wants and not cover any other facets. At least with agencies teaching this they're evaluated for safety and statistical success.

I don't always have to go very far pushing my morals on everyone else sir, I'm a fan of the police force and the government, those of which I have elected and appointed to serve me to keep me safe from people who enjoy living with too much freedom and can't handle baseline responsibility and advocate reckless danger to anyone who will listen. Occasionally however, when someones life is in immediate danger, and it is in my ability to do so, I save their life because I think I'm better than just sitting back and watching someone die. My conscience wouldn't accept that and wouldn't handle that. Unless your insurance policy is going to pay out thousands of dollars in counseling to make sure I can live with my regrets, I'll continue to help the people too arrogant to need it.

/rant, no need to reply- I won't bother to continue to be trolled by you. The new divers that haven't done their homework need to know that it's not their right to die.
 
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Diving is not a sport. It is an activity
with a skill set. Some more technically advanced than others. There is nothing competitive about it. Anyone with a pulse can participate.
 
Yay, more good ol' boys mistaking freedom for a lack of responsibility. People are always constantly running around whatever free lands you want to name waving their flag of freedoms while stepping on those of others.

Here we go.

-Cigarettes are a restricted item to children under the age of x in most countries because they're not responsible enough to make that choice. Those who do live under plenty of laws and regulation limiting their exposure to other people, of which is over a long term phase that may be reversed by removing yourself from their pollution.
-Base jumping is primarily illegal in any place where another person might be harmed. There are laws to charge offenders but frankly, if you're talking about unsuccessful jumps, well- they can't always learn from that lesson. They also have training. Those who aren't are seen in the same suicidal, inconsiderate light.
-Race car drivers have training and are on closed tracks. Those who aren't, are arrested. Street racing? The general populous follows speed laws in various areas such as city, highway and residential.
-Overweight people have complained that they don't know any better so now healthy nutrition is being pushed on everyone. 100 cal drinks and snacks, nutrition facts on packaging, etc.
-Outside of the United States and even in some states gun laws prohibit owners to have their guns unlocked. They must be kept in safes with trigger guards, specialized licenses are required to own firearms. As you can see, with the more and more school shootings that build up, like cave diving (go figure) law makers are slowly realizing maybe allowing these rights without tighter laws are unwise.

We're talking about cave diving, not walking down the street and yelling at a fat guy because one day he may be diabetic or find rolling out of bed or having sex a bit harder. This is something that even when you're properly trained you have a good chance of dying, each time you enter a cave. Those who are trained at least can say "I knew my choice". They know all the variables, all the ins and outs while trained, and still like race car drivers, they do it for some sort of other reason, the last thing they can say however is they didn't understand the risks and they didn't have the right to be there. At that point, they live and die amongst their peers in a location that is supposed to be restricted to anyone with common sense, and if not- improper training and experience. You may even have the experience, that's fine- but you'd have to admit to gathering it recklessly to be taking risks like that in some depressed state knowing that you may not come back. It's that or you didn't understand all the risks. As the lawyer you're trying to be, you obviously know without me saying that information, whether printed or digital isn't evaluated by law for accuracy. It can be as inaccurate as it wants and not cover any other facets. At least with agencies teaching this they're evaluated for safety and statistical success.

I don't always have to go very far pushing my morals on everyone else sir, I'm a fan of the police force and the government, those of which I have elected and appointed to serve me to keep me safe from people who enjoy living with too much freedom and can't handle baseline responsibility and advocate reckless danger to anyone who will listen. Occasionally however, when someones life is in immediate danger, and it is in my ability to do so, I save their life because I think I'm better than just sitting back and watching someone die. My conscience wouldn't accept that and wouldn't handle that. Unless your insurance policy is going to pay out thousands of dollars in counseling to make sure I can live with my regrets, I'll continue to help the people too arrogant to need it.

/rant, no need to reply- I won't bother to continue to be trolled by you. The new divers that haven't done their homework need to know that it's not their right to die.

I am so glad I don't live in Canada!
 
Unless your insurance policy is going to pay out thousands of dollars in counseling to make sure I can live with my regrets, I'll continue to help the people too arrogant to need it.

"Keep your hands to yourself" is a pretty simple concept, but apparently some here really believe their good intentions can justify attempting to physically coerce an unwilling diver underwater. Doing so under the flawed concept of "imminent danger" being bandied about in this thread, would be both illegal and far riskier than whatever the diver was doing before s/he was grabbed.

I have to ask, too: if training and certification are so important, will you make sure to show the offending diver your c-card for 'Unqualified Cave Diver Wrangling'? You do have one, yes? You obviously can't know what you don't know about underwater combat, and I'm sure none of you would attempt it without training and thereby put another person at risk. Perhaps it could be a new PADI specialty.

In sum, I had originally believed there could be no legitimate use for a Wasp air injection knife while diving, but some people in this thread are working very hard to change my mind about that.
 
OK I like that better than my view. But to answer NWGRATEFULDIVER: Actually I was on here I think around 1999-2000 you know back when UnclePug (I can still see his avatar) was on here alot, I hope that he is OK. So I have now 349 post and over 600 dives.

Unclepug still dives; a fair amount with his son. He managed to leave SB, an admirable feat lol
 
@Paladin, feelings are mutual, you'd have to want to fit into a community larger than 5 men in a cabin, oddly enough.

The video Dan linked about the silting and dangerous diver is a prime example, unfortunately following an idiot into a cave who is clueless isn't such an easy option. Frankly speaking you all assume that I'm hauling divers out of the cave I judge to be incompetent based on what they look like. Might be it's because I'm a user siding with cave divers, not being anyone other than well read- but hey, all this and I'm used to pointing out the obvious. For a band of users bent on yelling at a fascist level about not judging others and letting others do as they wish when you don't have the full story you sure do love, well... judging. If you're experienced and untrained I said nothing about you not being there. Believe it was more along the lines of training is an important step and really you shouldn't be in caves without training but I don't recall forbading anyone any such interaction if but if you've already recklessly earned that experience- well, whatever. You still may not know everything there is to know so why not gather a bit more knowledge for your own sake? Have you ever thought of if a cave diver has cause you haul you out of the water because you clearly look incompetent it might be because you are? I'm not talking about those who block entrances to any they don't recognize. My level of empathy doesn't stretch that far. I'm talking about those who are in the video Dan linked who literally can't hold their own in open water. Humans have a nature that encourages exploration, we always push boundaries and try to go places we can't. That's how we actually advance, we do need guidelines however on where our exploration takes us because in the end it might save lives.

Don't worry everyone, if I go to pull you out of whatever deadly situation you're in and you pull a knife on me or some sort of gun or even worse, my worst enemy a keyboard, you'll be left to drown. I'm generous, not a martyr.
 
I really think we need to put John Quinones on this matter.

Paladine, don't worry, Canada is a very big country.
 
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