Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[bl6394]

...

I do have an exception to bl6394's comment about Jr Open water. There are NO depth limitation recommendations after 12yrs old beyond the standard OW cert. If you read the card very specifically (I do not have one here so there could be minor differences), it states a parent or guardian until 12 with a depth limit recommendation listed. After 12, it only states a certified adult diver with no depth limit recommendation. While this may apply to instruction and insurance, it is only a recommendation. As is often stated, there are no scuba police and no 'laws' regarding any diving depths for any certification I am aware of. An instructor is bound by their agency and a dive shop/boat may/is bound by their insurance. Other than that, any limitation is a recommendation. There are many certifications that have instructor imposed limits that are different from the maximum recommendations printed on the actual card. These help protect students and instructors during the training program.

Packrat12 - the following is taken from the Key Standards on page 30 of the 2015 PADI Instructor Manual

Age — 12 to 14 Year Olds
Depth – Maximum 18 metres/60 feet for Junior Open Water
Divers. Maximum 21 metres/70 feet for continuing education.
After certification – Must dive with an adult certified diver

While this is a recommendation, if training agencies limit a junior diver's excursion's with an instructor - would a prudent parent - lacking an instructor certification and training - choose to exceed those limitations? Hopefully not.

 

[Z Gear]

That was exactly the way I got interested in diving, my father set up a system with a long hose in the pool and I carried on. Had great fun. Still here today.

My son 16 and my daughter 12 tried it in our neighbors pool. I got them familiar with the gear showed them some of the safety drills and they had a blast trying scuba.I have to sets of gear so it was really easy showing them the basics.If they want to get their OW cert later on they are now familiar using the gear and know what it feels like.

 

[tstormdiver]

Don't read too much into this idea that the shop could not fix that regulator. Few shops will touch a regulator unless it is a brand they carry and the mfgr is still providing service kit support. Many of those shops would not have a tech familiar with a 40m Y/O regulator. Yet that regulator might well be perfectly serviceable and usable. I dive a few regulators that shops would not touch including some that were discarded by shops that could or would not repair them.

For what it is worth, as the service technician & and an instructor at the shop, it was a long obsolete brand & No we do not have the parts to service it & no, do I have the skills or comfort level to work on it. Whether you think it is by design or just is what it is, I'll leave up to you. It very well may be serviceable with the proper parts & with someone with the proper skills.

 

[Doc]

For what it is worth, as the service technician & and an instructor at the shop, it was a long obsolete brand & No we do not have the parts to service it & no, do I have the skills or comfort level to work on it. Whether you think it is by design or just is what it is, I'll leave up to you. It very well may be serviceable with the proper parts & with someone with the proper skills.

You made the right call, again- PADI, your insurance company, and your dog loves you That is indeed worth a lot. If I was the LDS owner, your rejection for service would have been expected and S.O.P. The next part got you into the realm of social commentary which is speech protected by the Constitution but as we all learn, what is right aint necessarily correct. Codified SCUBA Agency "law" is not part of the bar exam.

I am a "self-identified" (to use the new PC phrase) equipment tech. I bought $18 worth of tools at Harbor Freight (always get the 1# mallet, grab a rock off your lawn for the anvil part, and be sure to get the free flashlight!).

If it breathes, I'll use it in a pool. I select regulators out of the junk box at the local flea-market based on one criteria: if it fails, it's designed to just free flow, not shut off. Always look for that very special unique and high tech feature. Maybe I don't like kids that much, but if it's good enough for me, tough it out, kid.

Where you got into the muck was when you brought in the (grandpa)+(kids)+(pool)+(old gear) equation. The solution is not a mathematical certainty for the many of us who learned this way or ourselves sparked a passion by doing this.

I was 6 years old in a Boca Raton pool when Lloyd Bridges stuck his double hose mouthpiece in my maw. It did horrifically injure me as it irrevocably put a silly grin on my face, right there in 4' of water.

Burdens I live with to this day. (and he wasn't even certified at that time!)

 

[jonhall]

I was 6 years old in a Boca Raton pool when Lloyd Bridges stuck his double hose mouthpiece in my maw. It did horrifically injure me as it irrevocably put a silly grin on my face, right there in 4' of water.

I want to thank you for refreshing my memory of a show I watched as a kid, Sea Hunt! I had been thinking that in my lifetime, until I started scuba at age 43, I had never been introduced to the activity......forgot all about that show and Flipper. How nice that you can find episodes on YouTube!

 

[victorzamora]

I was 6 years old in a Boca Raton pool when Lloyd Bridges stuck his double hose mouthpiece in my maw. It did horrifically injure me as it irrevocably put a silly grin on my face, right there in 4' of water.

Burdens I live with to this day. (and he wasn't even certified at that time!)

Luckily for you, you didn't have to live with that horror for long.....you know, because an uncertified diver sharing a reg with you clearly ended in your sudden and horrible death.

Jokes aside, what an incredible way to get hooked!

 

[Doc]

To this day, I have a vivid memory of staring down at his white Jantzen swim trunks and his Voit Duckfoot Flippers (which is what we used instead of fins back then).

In my long journey of recovery, I bought a BC and a single hose some 24 years later. Still a MOFfer I am.

PTSD counseling is still ongoing. This is a free service with Plutonium level membership in DARN (Divers are Really Neurotic)

Tell me more about this ED elixir that you call "nitrox".

 

[Diver0001]

I've taken hundreds upon hundreds of non-certified divers into the water for their first dive.......

..... but I was trained to do so and have all kinds of checks and balances to make sure that this happens safely.

This isn't what the OP was talking about. An experienced diver who may not be an instructor may be (probably is) perfectly able to take someone in the family pool for their first ever dive and to do that safely.

What she was talking about was someone who was himself demonstrably incompetent or at the very least far too headstrong to accurately assess the risks. The question she asked is if she should feel guilty for not facilitating him.

My answer was, and remains, NO. She would have been crazy to put that guy in a position to endanger his grand children regardless of how mad he got. The issue here isn't if you need to be an instructor to be a good/safe/informed diver... that's absurd.

The question is where or not "instrumental aggression" should be a good enough reason to back down and agree to someone's demands even if you believe they are (or will) be endangering the lives of others.

R..

 

[Wookie]

The question is where or not "instrumental aggression" should be a good enough reason to back down and agree to someone's demands even if you believe they are (or will) be endangering the lives of others.

R..

I disagree. The question here is whether or not a disinterested (or semi-interested) third party has an obligation to stop what they see as a dangerous act, and whether they have any liability either way. The liability question will go unanswered, because no matter how many lawyers are involved, until (or if) it went to trial in Kentucky, we would never know the outcome.

A recent facebook meme berates the bystanders about not interfering in a catfight in a Wal*Mart. I saw a couple of hundred posts, blogs, and commentaries about "Who stands aside and lets this happen, and shoots video of it? What has happened to America?"

I have to commend Tammy for standing up for her beliefs. Whether I believe how she does or not, she did what she felt was right. I'm not here to tell her what to believe.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

I'm not here to tell her what to believe.

I believe most of us agree with this philosophy.

Where I differ is the level of perceived danger in the pool with a family member (grandfather perceived as a horrific person because he did not say the magic words and does not have 5000+ dives of professional experience). There are pros and cons to both sides and no one side of this discussion is correct. However I can only express my opinion - since this is Scubaboard - my opinion is I would not go back to that LDS under any circumstances and I would find an alternative shop to do business and go get a tank so my grandkids can have some grandkid type fun this summer...