Non-Injury Incident in Cancun

[grassyknoll]

There's getting to be an attitude that all the divers have to be tightly controlled by the DM or it's not safe and a fatality is imminent.

fdog-this is no way what I am implying, I have no need for the DM other than basic site info. But how can a DM do his job (whatever this is going to be for a given group/dive, guide, buddy, nanny etc...), when half the divers showing up are going to have issues that will require his focus.
It seems some members of the industry are turning out graduates who almost require the they be controlled by the DM, when they splash with a lack of skills, inabillity to communicate their issues and perhaps worst of all, a lack of understanding as to how those deficits can impact themselves and others.

 

[bsee65]

There's getting to be an attitude that all the divers have to be tightly controlled by the DM or it's not safe and a fatality is imminent.


All the best, James

Actually, I have a different perception on this. The problem here wasn't that a diver went off on his own. The problem is that two divers agreed to be buddies when the dive started and then they were separated. It was an issue of meeting expectations and living up to responsibilities. I agree with the person who pointed out that they both screwed up. The guy who surfaced shouldn't have been able to disappear that completely without the buddy's knowledge. If he panicked, it would be hard to blame him for not signalling his buddy before surfacing. That said, for a diver proven prone to panic (say that ten times fast), going back down solo sounds like a real bad idea. Visibility mustn't have been a full 50' if he couldn't find the group again from the surface before diving back down, or maybe that was just another aspect of his questionable skills.

If someone wants to go off on their own and they have the skills to do it, that's fine. There are all sorts of pro-level divers who seem to like to fly solo. They've got the experience, and probably the redundant gear as well, to minimize risk on such a dive. This guy doesn't seem like he had the skills to do a solo dive safely, but I don't think that's what the OP is complaining about. And he does have a right to complain, since these guys who didn't live up to their responsibility impacted his dive.

 

[DandyDon]

I agree with the person who pointed out that they both screwed up.

That would be me, or at least I was one of those.

You really not certified yet? In your OW, I hope they drive home the buddy pair relationship of descending, swimming, ascending together well. I think the vast majority of deaths come from separation or solo diving. Not much can happen to a diver that a trained pair can't resolve.

If I can get my home buddy to make a trip with me, we stay together! He can be bad about exiting ahead at times, but we're working on that. He always takes a long time to get past 20 ft equalizing so I remind him: "I'll stay with you descending, you stay with me ascending - we stay together, right?"

If he can't go, I make the best of whom I dive with, expect the worst, carry my pony, try to be my best - and I have really screwed up at times. I was lucky; some are not.

 

[bsee65]

Nope, Don, no scuba for me. I've been in, on, and around water regularly for about 40 years, but never did it. My girl tried certification about 15 years ago and I would have done it when we got together shortly after if a bad instructor hadn't caused her to blow out both eardrums and quit during her OW dives. I wouldn't mind having it for 20-30' reef and wreck dives and underwater photography, but I have no real lust to dive deep, and I know she wouldn't be up for it if she could even handle the shallow stuff. I snorkle and take pics on shallow reefs while she paddles around the surface looking down. I suppose I would have done it anyway if we lived in a warmer location or nearer a dive Mecca.

Of course, that doesn't mean I can't do my best to understand how things work, especially learning what not to do.

-bob

 

[fdog]

fdog-this is no way what I am implying, I have no need for the DM other than basic site info. But how can a DM do his job (whatever this is going to be for a given group/dive, guide, buddy, nanny etc...), when half the divers showing up are going to have issues that will require his focus.
It seems some members of the industry are turning out graduates who almost require the they be controlled by the DM, when they splash with a lack of skills, inabillity to communicate their issues and perhaps worst of all, a lack of understanding as to how those deficits can impact themselves and others.

Absolutely, I agree with you on this, but as long as the industry is driven by dollars, we're probably stuck with it.

There's getting to be an attitude that all the divers have to be tightly controlled by the DM or it's not safe and a fatality is imminent.

Here, I was pointing out that lately there's been a lot of threads that "blame the DM" for an incident.

Working as a DM in these tropical locations has to be like being a goalie: nobody says thanks for doing a good job, but you sure get barbecued for mistakes.

Since it seems that the majority of clients did their OW course 8 years ago and haven't dove since, it's not a job that I'd want.


All the best, James

 

[stadevene]

The OP reminds me of a few things I've seen on dives. I've always felt I'm "the new guy" (or we are the new couple) on a boat as we're now just past 50 dived. I'm repeatedly amazed at how poor some others dive and how ill prepared they seem to be.

On one trip we were with the same group for a week and one of the divers was in an upright position and kind of "egg beatering" throughout every dive while her husband would be all over the place taking pictures. She seemed extremely uncomfortable in the water and I (and most of the boat I think) had to wonder about her certification process.

I also agree with those who are concerned about industry training. I've never really understood how someone who is on vacation is to complete the classroom work for their OW course. We completed our classroom and pool training a couple of weeks before we went on the dives. The instruction portion was spread out over a few weeks which allowed for enough time to go through the entire course and do numerous drills. I think this really paid off as we were quite comfortable in the water even in the silty conditions while on our OW dives in Costa Rica.

We were much better equipped than the other student. We found out he had not read the book yet and had not written the exam, but yet he was doing his dives? On our last dive it was quite silty. The plan was to go down and meet on the bottom. Well, the experienced divers, the instructor, and the buddy of the other student head down faster than us. We have lost sight of them now but keep calm and follow the bubble trail. My wife and I make it down fine, meet the group, and complete the dive.

We later find out the other student aborted his dive. He said he was unable to clear his ears however we thought he ended up alone and freaked out in the silt and aborted. In hindsight this was smarter than continuing to dive and end up with a real problem. However one has to wonder why he was left in that position. We knew he was uncomfortable, the instructor must have known too. I believe had he completed the course work back home he would have been better equipped to handle the conditions.

 

[stevejaz]

Not much can happen to a diver that a trained pair can't resolve.

Define trained. All of the people described in this dive were "trained" as they held a c-card.

I'm seeking more training for 3 reasons and this thread just re-affirms my thoughts on this . One, I prefer to be as educated as possible in activities I participate in as I don't like to be a liability to those around me. Two, my family is diving and I am responsible for them. Three, I have not met that many people in life that I can say with any certainty would not panic or atleast would think rationally and think things through in a pressing situation. Consequently I task my self with the safety of those around me.

I'd also like to comment on this particular dive. It seems to me that in these resort destinations the DM's often take a very active leadership role and most of their guests are "vacation divers". Consequently while people do buddy up (sometimes), the dives don't necessarily feel that way and become, "follow the leader". This seems to give people a more lax idea as to the "buddy system" and you have incidents like this. Add to that the DM is trying to deal with multiple issues, most divers don't carry a communication device, and the fact that this diver was having anxiety issues.....thankfully he went up, instead of down or this would be in the other section and we'd be blaming the DM. Also given that the OP was diving buddy-less, I think would actually compound this...no offense as I understand your intentions. My wife is usually my buddy but knows that I "sweep" on all my dives as it's just in my nature and I don't want to be having a discussion in "the other" section of the board about a dive gone bad.

As we've seen time and again, the DM gives a false since of their responsabilities in the title itself.

Glad this turned out as a lesson learned though!

 

[stevejaz]

The OP reminds me of a few things I've seen on dives. I've always felt I'm "the new guy" (or we are the new couple) on a boat as we're now just past 50 dived. I'm repeatedly amazed at how poor some others dive and how ill prepared they seem to be.

On one trip we were with the same group for a week and one of the divers was in an upright position and kind of "egg beatering" throughout every dive while her husband would be all over the place taking pictures. She seemed extremely uncomfortable in the water and I (and most of the boat I think) had to wonder about her certification process.

I also agree with those who are concerned about industry training. I've never really understood how someone who is on vacation is to complete the classroom work for their OW course. We completed our classroom and pool training a couple of weeks before we went on the dives. The instruction portion was spread out over a few weeks which allowed for enough time to go through the entire course and do numerous drills. I think this really paid off as we were quite comfortable in the water even in the silty conditions while on our OW dives in Costa Rica.

We were much better equipped than the other student. We found out he had not read the book yet and had not written the exam, but yet he was doing his dives? On our last dive it was quite silty. The plan was to go down and meet on the bottom. Well, the experienced divers, the instructor, and the buddy of the other student head down faster than us. We have lost sight of them now but keep calm and follow the bubble trail. My wife and I make it down fine, meet the group, and complete the dive.

We later find out the other student aborted his dive. He said he was unable to clear his ears however we thought he ended up alone and freaked out in the silt and aborted. In hindsight this was smarter than continuing to dive and end up with a real problem. However one has to wonder why he was left in that position. We knew he was uncomfortable, the instructor must have known too. I believe had he completed the course work back home he would have been better equipped to handle the conditions.

I think everyone responds differently. I'll use our group as an example.

I did PADI elearning and completed my confined and OW stuff in 2 days while on vacation. I'm pretty comfortable in the water and would consider myself an average beginner.

My wife went through my PADI elearning later, we discussed it and I taught her dive tables and such. She then went through a local program that consisted of 5 sessions.... a intro, 2 all day sessions with classes and confined dives and then 2 half day OW sessions. Got through her issues and is also an average beginner.

My buddy did his at the same time I did, also an average beginner.

His wife had the longest and most class sessions of any of us and yet I think she forgets she has fins. Flails like you wouldn't believe, I have video and just watch in awe, guess who I keep the closest eye on during our dives?

Point being, I don't think every diver is a direct reflection of the training they received. Some are just more naturally in tune with it and/or have better coordination.

 

[stadevene]

Agreed, some people just get it, some don't. Some think "hey, it would be cool to dive!" but have rarely taken a breath through a snorkel before or put a mask on. It's a different world when you can't just take a normal breath and some people don't understand it.

I think it's great you went through the elearning so well, the more successes the better. There are some people who need a slower pace and personally, having the instructor there to talk about different experiences he's had or seen was really helpful - just like this sub forum can be.

Can you imagine what your buddy's wife would be like if she did your two day course though?

 

[DandyDon]

I've been offline for several days....

Define trained. All of the people described in this dive were "trained" as they held a c-card.

I'm seeking more training for 3 reasons and this thread just re-affirms my thoughts on this . One, I prefer to be as educated as possible in activities I participate in as I don't like to be a liability to those around me. Two, my family is diving and I am responsible for them. Three, I have not met that many people in life that I can say with any certainty would not panic or atleast would think rationally and think things through in a pressing situation. Consequently I task my self with the safety of those around me.

Oh, I think a good basis for beginner training would include OW, AOW, and Nitrox - not that you actually learn a helluva lot in any of those, but it's a good combination start. Any diver who wouldn't do at least that much is one I might enjoy going to sea with in very easy conditions, like Key Largo's Molasses Reef with no current or chop - but I wouldn't think of them as seriously into this life threatening sport no want to be on the same boat headed into better dives. Those 3 cards and the associated dives under Int supervision do not equate to experience, but it's a good start with good attitude.

Serious learning comes more from experience, best done starting on those easy dives and working up, I suppose. I've know a few SB divers who never bothered to get more than OW, but worked their way thru a lot more experience - resentful about the boats who wouldn't take them because they didn't have their AOW formality card and/or Nitrox card so useful on wreck dives. Good divers that they may well be, I must wonder why they avoided paying the start up dues in training...?

And along with the learning thru experience, I try to add a lot more to my own, like -what-if discussions, here and with my home dive bud as well; drills on freshwater practice dives as well as on safety stops; maybe even drills on real dives to avoid complacency; and so forth.

All that said, I still screw up at times - badly on a few times, so I suppose it takes even more than all that for some of us to prevent from getting in trouble, and I bet I have more mistakes to make - but at least my bud & I work in self and mutual rescues, some thru impromptu learning experiences...