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Ok let's back the conversation up 1000 steps and forget climate science.

We all agree that pollution is a major problem right? I assume everyone stipulates to that at least. So the next question is, what policies should be enacted to mitigate polluted waterways and air?
 
Sure, climate science is highly politicized, and by both parties with different agendas. My entire point in this thread has simply been that the oft used "97%" statement is bad... really bad, and it does a disservice to everyone.



Like I said... climate science has become a cult/religion for some and elicits the same irrational, overboard, and defensive reactions at the mere possibility of someone disagreeing with your holy doctrine. You are so eager to argue you can't take the time to read and comprehend a super simple point and instead keep trying to steer people toward an argument they have no interest in having with you but you clearly yearn to have with anyone. And when you can't get the argument you want, you then start throwing out tangent arguments to troll for another possible participant. Wow.



Sigh... and herein is again my entire point, the renowned scientist "deniers" I referenced all have said that the climate is changing and humans have some contributing affect, thus the highly vague 97% statistic, but they are still labeled deniers because they disagree when bad science is used and with false predictions of impending doom.

I find it highly ironic that two of you are so eager to attack someone for being religious and yet you two are displaying far more irrational defense of an idea that you feel is beyond scrutiny... :rofl3:
It's not at all beyond scrutiny. Please present the contrary argument. This topic has been debated ad nauseum by folks much smarter than you and I. The overwhelming number of climate scientists believe, that the change is rapidly approaching a tipping point (some believe that point has already been reached) and that we are embarking into an unprecedented era of non-reversable catastrophic change.

Remember where this thread started, it was about a post noting a systematic effort to disembowel the government agencies (EPA and NASA) that have been monitoring and studying climate change (this is not the first effort by Lamar Smith), in the apparent short-term hope that no information is good information and that if we delay, it can only be good.

My point in attempting to call out Richard (he does dance well) is that this issue has almost become religious vis-a-vis the Creationist/Evolutionist "debate". One side "knows" they are correct and will not accept any demonstrable evidence to the contrary (after all the Bible is Truth). The other, will accept a contrary view, as long as it withstands scrutiny. I count myself in the second camp. Back to the subject of climate change, please present the evidence that 97% of published climate scientists are in error. Similarly please present evidence that the earth is ~6000 years old. Please.
 
My entire point in this thread has simply been that the oft used "97%" statement is bad... really bad,
Scientific consensus is simply the best data we have at the moment. It doesn't matter if we're discussing Earth's age, evolution, the link between smoking and lung cancer, how to best perform a bypass operation or anthropogenic climate change. The best available data are those which the scientific community agrees on.

Sometimes, the consensus position is wrong, a fact that science deniers and woo peddlers use to the max in what's called the Galileo gambit. But science is by its very nature, self-correcting. Provide sufficient data showing that smoking prevents lung cancer, that the Earth was created some six thousand years ago by a bearded guy in the sky, or that the nine gigatons of carbon we add to the biosphere every year don't have any effect on the unprecedented warming we're seeing, and you'll see that the majority of the scientific community will - to use Tim Minchin's words from his poem "Storm" - 'spin on a f....ing dime'.

And until that happens, I'll follow the current advice of the majority of competent climatologists, I'll follow the current advice of the majority of competent decompression scientists, in fact I'll follow the current advice of the majority of the competent scientists in any field in which I'm not highly trained and accomplished. If you choose to follow the advice of a crackpot minority just because 'the oft used "97%" statement is bad... really bad', well, that's of course your prerogative. Which in my opinion is pretty bloody stupid, by the way.
 
It feels like we're discussing evolution vs. creationism (hello Richard :) ) of whether the earth is flat again.

Ok Drrich, before we go any further, are you a young earther or old earther? If you say young earth, then any other discussion on issues of science is pointless.

So again with the personal insults against anyone with a differing opinion. I myself am not a believer but I have never had any desire to denegrate anyone who does. The basic tenants of most major religions whether Christianity or Buddism have given societies a basic framework of right and wrong that has allowed mankind to thrive to the point where we could worry about things like science or diving for that matter.

My point is you think you have the right to belittle drrich's religion but get angry when anyone questions yours. The big difference is that most religions don't expect the rest of society to be forced into supporting thier beliefs. Your juvenile name calling makes you appear petty and it's hard to take you serious.

Even if all the predictions are correct, what would all the money in the world be able to do about it? If in fact the world is going to be radically changed in this and following centuries we will either survive it or we won't. Just like all the other great climactic shifts Earth has been through, some species thrive and some die out, why is this different.
 
Takes the money and runs.
Runs where? You say you live in Canada, how is your health care system financed?

Make laws, not taxes.
Interesting. What kind of laws would you suggest to deal with these two of Pigou's own examples of proper use of that kind of taxation?

Pigou provides numerous illustrations of incidental uncharged disservices. For example, if a contractor builds a factory in the middle of a crowded neighborhood, the factory causes these incidental uncharged disservices: higher congestion, loss of light, and a loss of health for the neighbors. He also references businesses that sell alcohol. The sale of alcohol necessitates higher costs in policemen and prisons, Pigou argues, because of the crime associated with alcohol. In other words, the net private product of alcohol businesses is peculiarly large relative to the net social product of the same business. He suggests that this is why most countries tax alcohol businesses.

The purpose of Pigovian taxes is to convert an externality to an internality. By putting a tax on industrial pollution, the government "encourages" the factory to build a wastewater treatment plant instead of just dumping their crap on someone else. If the tax is high enough, building that treatment plant becomes economically favorable, and the customers end up paying what the product really costs instead of dumping some of that cost on someone else.
 
Runs where? You say you live in Canada, how is your health care system financed?

Interesting. What kind of laws would you suggest to deal with these two of Pigou's own examples of proper use of that kind of taxation?

The purpose of Pigovian taxes is to convert an externality to an internality. By putting a tax on industrial pollution, the government "encourages" the factory to build a wastewater treatment plant instead of just dumping their crap on someone else. If the tax is high enough, building that treatment plant becomes economically favorable, and the customers end up paying what the product really costs instead of dumping some of that cost on someone else.

Our health care system is financed, as you know, through taxation. I wish that it were not. I would much prefer people being left alone to live as they wish, and purchase the health care that they want. Instead, products like alcohol and tobacco are surtaxed and the revenues are supposed to be funnelled into the public health care system to compensate for the damage. I think that this procedure is in line with the external/internal idea. I believe that the higher prices that the taxes create are also intended to dissuade usage. My view is the opposite, in that people should manage themselves, and do their own personal internalizing/externalizing, when there are actual consequences for their actions. I am against the government being so involved in peoples' lives. If someone smokes, and their insurance premiums are substantially higher on the free market, or they forego insuring themselves, the risk that their medical costs due to smoking-related illness could be substantial or even bankrupting may make them consider not smoking voluntarily, or through necessity. The money that individuals would save on taxes would be in their own hands for their own use in purchasing what the government now does for everyone, without consent. For the criminal element referenced with alcohol, if the government was less involved is spending peoples' money on their own healthcare they would have more to put into law enforcement.

If the industrial polluter, or misplaced development project existed in my world of less taxes and more laws, both would be simply denied the ability to do what they do. If the industry cannot manage their pollution themselves, and not pollute acccording to the laws, then they would be shut down. They can move to China. For the developer whose project would negatively impact the local community, if they break laws intended to preserve a quality of life for resident citizens, they would be shut down, or construction permits denied. There are already plenty of laws in these regards. I do not see how taxation figures into it.

Similarly, with respect to taxes, petroleum products are also subject to high government surtaxes, and following the internal/external idea, those additional tax revenues would ideally be used for smog reduction or roadway maintentance projects. Subsidies are also funnelled to public transport services, making them more affordable, and hopefully persuading people to leave their cars at home, and engage in the win-win scenario of cheaper transportation with reduced impact on the environment. There is some merit to be seen here, particularly if you have visited Mexico City or Sao Paolo. I believe that infrastucture does fall within the mandate of a government, so with respect to roadways, am not opposed to taxation of vehicles, fuel, or both, as long as the money goes directly into those areas. What we do not see however is more choice for the consumer. There are no tax credits for the purchase of electric vehicles. This, to me, punishes both the automotive industry and the consumer. Where I live, gas prices and taxes are among the highest on the planet, roads and bridges are crumbling, highways are jammed all the time, hospital waiting rooms are overflowing, patients sleep on stretchers in the hallways, boarded up buildings and storefronts abound, personal and state debt are out of control, but the government is still hiring.

There is clearly something wrong.

I do not have faith in government to resolve any of it.
 
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