Nitrox tables going too?

[Randy43068]

No argument Kenny. However, discussing the use of a dive computer in general would take about an hour at most, if taught as you're describing. The issue (unless I misunderstood) is that computers should be taught at the expense of teaching how to use dive tables. I don't think it's prudent. I say that with the full understanding that in the "real world" most, probably all of those students will use a dive computer during their dives.

Perhaps it's the level at which dive tables are taught that is at issue. I'm not advocating that the basic scuba class these days, should teach a student to be highly proficient at using the dive tables, rather to teach them what they are, how they work and why they might want to use a dive table. If a student wants an intimate knowledge of using dive tables, then one can read some mighty fine examples online, or ask the instructor to give, or sell them some instruction on the subject.

You also make a wonderful point about the simplicity of modern dive computers. They really don't need a class for one to learn how to use them.

Dive gear in general can cost quite a bit, fortune or not. As far as that goes, my golf clubs were expensive, as was my BBQ pit, home PC, etc. However, aside from the basic mask, fins, & snorkel (and even those can be pretty costly) my computer was one of the cheapest diving purchases I made.

As far as teaching how to use them, again learning any type of technology is different. Where training divers on computers is involved, it's learning how to dive safely using the functions that the computer offers but it's up to the individual diver to learn how to use the functions his particular computer offers on his own. Also, there are opportunities online to take specialty classes specific to the computer you purchase. I can only speak for the computer I own and not others, but mine is set up so simple that I'd have to say that a trained diver who couldn't figure out how to use it on his own would probably be better off staying on dry land. Don't take that as me knocking someone who chooses not to use a computer, but just that mine functions so simply that learning how to use it with or without formal training is a non-issue.

I'm right with you on being limited by air more than NDL's, but at the same time I also like the freedom of diving by my computer rather than limiting myself to square profiles. The way I look at it, if you enjoy diving and you're comfortable with the way you choose to do it, then that's fantastic!

 

[Kenny13]

Randy, we're on the same page. I said in my first post on this topic that it was still a good idea to keep instruction on the tables, even if you're teaching and advocating use of computers. Especially when there are times that divers could be forced to rely on tables or not dive.

Like I said, even though I would be using computers I took it upon myself to get an understanding of tables and my instructor gave us an overview of them as well. Also, he told us that if we wanted to learn the tables in depth he would be happy to do so outside of the class at no cost.

 

[Elvistheking]

It's an unfair analogy. Dive tables aren't as different from one agency to another as are dive computers from one company to another.

Ehh your having a laugh aren't you?

Just about every computer under the sun tells you how much no stop time you have left in nice big letters (we are talking rec. diving here after all so no deco), how many times have you looked at a buddies computer underwater if there is some confusion about their hand signals, due to say thick gloves, etc., and been able to see instantly what it's telling you no matter what the make or model?

Compare that than between the PADI eRDP/wheel/RDP and say the BSAC '88 tables, I wouldn't have a clue where to start with the wheel or '88's!!!!

 

[watboy]

How come no one ever starts a thread "The Wheel going away". As not all dives are square, (dare I say, the majority of dives are not square), why are we depriving students of this great tool? I think using the wheel gives you a better understanding of what your computer is calculating than using a table. I insisted in my nitrox course to practice planning multi level nitrox dives using an air wheel (did they never make a nitrox wheel?).

 

[Randy43068]

Man-o-man! I used to have one of those PADI wheels. I thought I was the real schiznitz because I could use it. I was cool because I was checking my dives with a thing that looked like what pilots, back in the day, used to do flight planning with. I was cool, till they made fun of me.

 

[Randy43068]

After looking back, I did see your posting. We're on the same page.

Randy, we're on the same page. I said in my first post on this topic that it was still a good idea to keep instruction on the tables, even if you're teaching and advocating use of computers. Especially when there are times that divers could be forced to rely on tables or not dive.

Like I said, even though I would be using computers I took it upon myself to get an understanding of tables and my instructor gave us an overview of them as well. Also, he told us that if we wanted to learn the tables in depth he would be happy to do so outside of the class at no cost.

 

[Akimbo]

Good points all. I view this as an inevitable side-effect of the evolution of computers and dramatically improved (but much more complex) algorithms. Unfortunately, we are at the point where computers are not quite reliable or easy to use enough. Couple this with tables being too limited due to the square profile assumption. Bottom line, relatively few recreational divers use tables anymore.

IMHO, the biggest concern is that dropping tables from the curriculum is not replaced with more in-depth instruction in decompression theory and failure-mode procedures (in most but not all cases). Fortunately, a lot more people learn about Nitrox and decompression than actually conduct decompression dives. Those that do, at this point anyway, are generally motivated enough to study decompression theory on their own.

The ever evolving technology in manufacturing, computers, drysuits, and rebreathers will force continued transitional challenges for a very long time. I thing bemoaning the loss of this skill is much less important than figuring out the best way to deal with the evolution.

 

[Kingpatzer]

New divers should be taught about dive tables from the beginning. Granted, most people will never use them unless they have to. However, learning and using dive tables isn't really difficult (unless the instructor is incompetent) and it's always good to know our diving "roots" so to speak.

Do you recommend that students find out their O2 tolerance by diving till they black out the way Cousteau did too? Or is that part of the roots you find that OW students don't need?

Spending valuable class time teaching antiquated technology that won't be used by the majority of students is a waste of their time. I'm more respectful of my students than to waste their time.

Neither do I expect my kid to spend their time in chemistry class learning to use a slide rule.

 

[TMHeimer]

Perhaps it's the level at which dive tables are taught that is at issue. I'm not advocating that the basic scuba class these days, should teach a student to be highly proficient at using the dive tables, rather to teach them what they are, how they work and why they might want to use a dive table. If a student wants an intimate knowledge of using dive tables, then one can read some mighty fine examples online, or ask the instructor to give, or sell them some instruction on the subject.



Many good replies from both sides. Think this is one of the best. An in class explanation of how tables work would be enough to satify me. Actually, I studied the tables at length way back then, before starting with the OW and Nitrox classes, so I kind of learned them on my own. I do a problem for Air one day and Nitrox the next (copied from the classwork). Each takes under a minute. But that's just me.

 

[rubixcube]

Spending valuable class time teaching antiquated technology that won't be used by the majority of students is a waste of their time. I'm more respectful of my students than to waste their time.

The problem with this logic is that it is easily taken too far. After all does a student really need to know all that physics? Couldn't a diver simply follow sets of safety rules and guidelines and still dive safely? Well yes they could, but I don't see to many arguments saying that dive physics and physiology need to be cut from courses. If taken to extreme levels classes could devolve into even simpler and shorter than they are now.
Instructor: "Strap this to you, breathe from this, listen to what this doohickey says, equalize, don't hold your breath, and don't drown. Got it? Good here's your card, have fun."