nitrox MOD/TOD

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TSandM:
I paid $500 for all the nitrox I can use for a year. At the rate I'm going, that's going to be about 35 cents a fill . . . :)

Wait until you start rolling in with doubles! No shop here in Florida is dumb enough to offer a policy like that. The cave divers would break them in a hurry.

Hey Mr, I need these 5 sets of 104s filled (3800psi please), and those 5 EAN50 bottles, and give me 5 bottles of 80/20. And for my dive buddy...
 
pickens_46929:
This is what I was taught in my recent TDI Adv. Nitrox / Deco procedures class.

Still provides wiggle room if there is some trouble... Imaging planning for a max. PO2 of 1.6 during the working portion of the dive and something happens....
You make a good point and it is very good practice. (And I agree in large part because I am also TDI trained and like their approach)

But on the other hand the US Navy did research with extreme PPO2 exposures and developed time limits to cover those exposures.

For example the vast majority of people will not have an O2 hit even with a 2.0 PPO2 for a minute or two. So dropping 10 feet below your MOD to retrieved your dropped dive light is never going to be recommended or sanctioned by a training agency, instructor, etc, but it is also probably not going to result in an oxtox incident for most divers.

The lower PPO2 limits are set to establish larger safety margins, but it is catastrophising the issue to say that dropping a few feet below the depth at which a 1.6 PPO2 occurs for a few seconds or even a minute or two is going to get you killed. The stress and panic that ensues when an over indoctrinated diver finds himself or herself a few feet below the MOD and thinks he or she is about to die is far more dangerous.

Lets say for example that I am doing a dive to 150 feet. I lose all the back gas in my redundant doubles (very unlikely), my buddy dissapears and I only have my deco bottle of 50% (with an MOD of 70 ft). In this case doing a free ascent to 100-110 feet and then switching to the 50% for the miniute or so that it takes to continue to ascend to my first deco stop at 70' is most likely not going to kill me despite the 2.18 peak PPO2 due to the very brief time I am in excess of a 1.6 PPO2. It's not written in stone that it won't kill me but it's probably a better option than drowning if I need to breathe something.

Other examples of this are the now (mostly archaic) deep air records where divers went to 300-400 plus feet on air for short periods of time (2.76 PPO2 @ 400'). The majority of these record setters and attempters survived. And Hal Watts, one of the survivors, still offers deep air training and certification to 240 ft (a 1.74 PPO2 on air).

In short, it's never a good idea to exceed a PPO2 of 1.6 but it is also probably not going to result in an oxtox if you, for example, briefly drop 10' or 20' below the MOD to assist your in distress dive buddy and get him or her back up to the MOD. You have to do a quick cost benefit analysis, but it helps to really understand the magnitude of the risks rather than to only know the admonition against ever doing it that is promoted by training agencies.

With regard to long term O2 exposure, you have to dive your buns off to exceed the NOAA CNS clock limits even at a 1.6 PPO2 and it's all but impossible to do it at a PPO2 of 1.4. And this is using a very conservative 24 hour clock method that does not give you credit for reduction that occurs during surface intervals.
 
DA Aquamaster:
The lower PPO2 limits are set to establish larger safety margins, but it is catastrophising the issue to say that dropping a few feet below the depth at which a 1.6 PPO2 occurs for a few seconds or even a minute or two is going to get you killed. The stress and panic that ensues when an over indoctrinated diver finds himself or herself a few feet below the MOD and thinks he or she is about to die is far more dangerous.
Way too many divers don't seem to realize that oxtox is a function of BOTH depth/ppO2 and TIME, and think that something mysterious and magic happens the instant you exceed 1.6ata ppO2.

Of course, some of those over indoctrinated divers also think that their body is going to explode the instant they go into deco. :)

-----------

As to the original question of 1.4 vs 1.6MOD, I prefer to mark my tanks with the MAXIMUM operating depth of 1.6ppO2, and plan my dive to be mostly 1.2ata ppO2 or shallower. Since there is confusion about this, my notation on the contents label is typically something like "32.1% 111'/1.4, 132'/1.6, tank xxx." (I put a tank number on the contents label so I can be sure it doesn't somehow get moved to another tank).
 
DA Aquamaster:
You make a good point and it is very good practice. (And I agree in large part because I am also TDI trained and like their approach)

.......
In short, it's never a good idea to exceed a PPO2 of 1.6 but it is also probably not going to result in an oxtox if you, for example, briefly drop 10' or 20' below the MOD to assist your in distress dive buddy and get him or her back up to the MOD. You have to do a quick cost benefit analysis, but it helps to really understand the magnitude of the risks rather than to only know the admonition against ever doing it that is promoted by training agencies.
......


That's why I like to plan a PPO2 of 1.2 average, 1.4 max and 1.6 for deco.

That lets you easily dip deeper than you average depth for a while, nearing 1.4 as long as you spend equal time shallower to average about 1.2.

I think if i eventually go to longer deco dives, 1.2 average will allow more margin for increased PPO2 on deco.

MOD is calculated on PPO2 of 1.4, but then you need to take into account average PPO2 and END to get the safe working depths.

However, since the rule is that you only dive a gas you personally analyzed, and marked, on the day you dive it, there should be no issue with "MOD" etc. you make sure the analysis and what's printed on the tanks (for stages/deco) jives with your teams version of "MOD" (and the entire team dives the same way, so everything is easy)
 
limeyx:
...
That lets you easily dip deeper than you average depth for a while, nearing 1.4 as long as you spend equal time shallower to average about 1.2.

I think if i eventually go to longer deco dives, 1.2 average will allow more margin for increased PPO2 on deco.

MOD is calculated on PPO2 of 1.4, but then you need to take into account average PPO2 and END to get the safe working depths.
...

Where do these ideas come from?
 
Hoyden:
I think that the argument that whoever "coins" a term gets to define it for everyone and for all time is specious - words and terms used in both common and technical language evolve and change. In addition to that, I think that anyone would be hard pressed to argue that NOAA coined the term "maximum operating depth" given the fact that the first nitrox dives occurred in London in 1879, British navy divers during WW2 used rebreathers with nitrox mixes of 32.5, 40 and 60 because these mixes had deeper operational depths than 100 percent O2 and Lt Cmdr J V Dwyer produced nitrox tables for the US Navy in the 1950s. Since NOAA wasn't formed until 1970, I'd be willing to bet that somebody else used the term before them. Common understanding of the term "maximum operating depth" among recreational dive agencies seems to be MOD = PPO2/(FO2xP). MOD is dependant on PPO2. That seems pretty straightforward to me. The PPO2 used to calculate MOD should be agreed on by the certifying agency of the divers conducting the dive or by the team making the dive.

I don't see what is difficult to understand in that.

YMMV,

Jackie Cooper


The truth of a thing can only be one answer. Either 1 + 1 = 2 or it doesn't. If the definer of MOD says it shall be judged in terms of 1.6 po2, then there you have it. Now another agency can coin their own term and define it as it decides, but don't steal someone elses acronym. That is not mearly specious, but meretricious.
 
I use 1,4 for the dive and 1,6 for deco...
I won´t worry to much if I come up against or exceed these limits a bit...specially not the one for deco...as charlie99 said, the risk of oxtox is a function not only of pO2 but of time at that pO2...

The above is what I do..."don´t try this at home"....yada, yada, yada
 
I mark MOD at 1.6.

I think the present trend towards teaching 1.4 as MOD is a mistake - it's designed to keep people with poor depth control or judgement from going to truly crazy ppO2's. I mean no disrepect to individual instructors who are required to teach MOD=1.4 by their agency.
 
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