Nitrox Class Without Tables or Math...OK?

[Scuba_Steve]

Soggy, you do realize this is like trying to talk some sense to the wawa people don't you?

CFD.

Padi tables, suggestions and rules, as well as SDI computer only diving and the likes were meant for exactly these types of divers. Let them have it. It goes hand in hand actually.

Wanna go diving and do some "off-the-cuff stuff" ? <uhggg, total misunderstanding here too I see>

Regards bud.

 

[H2Andy]

no one can start diving and be Sheck Exley

you guys are forgetting your own learning curve and the way you started

this is a good way to start. those who want more, will get more. those who don't,
won't.

but don't kid yourselves that you weren't "these types of diver" at some point in your
learning curve.

 

[limeyx]

Why stop there? I mean, those equations and tables were derived from human and animal testing. I say that unless you have actually put a goat or a navy diver into a chamber, you aren't qualified to dive.

...
I can't believe I'm still posting to this thread, but it's 5AM and I've got a killer cough and can't sleep, so what better to do that argue on the Internet.

Actually it's worse than that

you actually need to *be* the goat!

(Don't worry, I'm bailing on the thread too)

 

[Scuba_Steve]

but don't kid yourselves that you weren't "these types of diver" at some point in your
learning curve.

EXACTLY.

But of course these clowns can't realize this fact so guys with no dives and no clue perpetuate what their equally idiotic Instructors and agency lines teach.

It's just telling people not to do the dumb things you've done. it's a waste of time really over the internet, but occassioanlly some guys have nothing better to do anyway, so it passes some time......

Gotta go and re-caulk the tub now.....lol <bailing as well>

Regards

 

[H2Andy]

EXACTLY.

But of course these clowns can't realize this fact so guys with no dives and no clue perpetuate what their equally idiotic Instructors and agency lines teach.

you realized it, and got better

look, people buy commodities (including education) for all different reasons. if what they have works for them, why blame them?

if they find it doesn't work, then they'll look for other commodities that work.

why belittle someone for not driving a Ferrari if their time, energy, life plan,
and needs are better suited by driving an Accord?

not everyone wants the same from diving. you have to respect that.

 

[Dragon2115]

why belittle someone for not driving a Ferrari if their time, energy, life plan,
and needs are better suited by driving an Accord?

True. But common to both is the basic knowledge on how to operate a car. If you're inclined to drive an Accord with an automatic transmission that's fine. However, if you wish to step up to the Ferrari then you'd better be prepared to learn to drive stick. It would also be beneficial to get a little knowledge of engine performance so that you select the best rpm/load points to shift at. Not enough to design the damn thing, but enough to be able to get the most out of it. Yeah, I suppose you could get a Ferrari with an automatic transmission, but why would you want to?

 

[minnesota01r6]

Dragon - your key statement was "if you wish to step up to the ferrari"

not all divers want to do anything other than look at fish in 60 fsw. Doing so safely is far different from "getting the most out of it" - whatever that may be

 

[jiml]

...... My dumb Vyper doesn't even allow me to get an accurate MOD since it uses some idiotic and demonstrably *incorrect* formula for calculating MOD. I think it uses 32 fsw as 1 ATA or something, but comes up with a MOD of 107 for 32% at 1.4. I would only know that it is incorrect if I knew how to do the *simple* math myself. It is entirely possible that there is some setting in there that I have been unable to find, but I no longer care because I know that the computer doesn't provide me with any information that I don't already know......

Soggy,

I was going to mention this a couple of days ago when you said something about the Vyper not knowing how to calculate MOD. On page 32 of the Vyper manual is the following warning:

"THE DIVE COMPUTER WILL NOT ACCEPT FRACTIONAL PERCENTAGE
VALUES OF OXYGEN CONCENTRATION. DO NOT ROUND UP
FRACTIONAL PERCENTAGES! For example, 31.8% oxygen should be
entered as 31%. Rounding up will cause nitrogen percentages to be understated
and will affect decompression calculations, which could result in
dive planning with an increased risk of decompression sickness. If there is
a desire to adjust the computer to provide more conservative calculations,
use the personal adjustment feature to affect decompression calculations
or reduce the PO2 setting to affect oxygen exposure tracking."

So, one can infer that the MOD for the Vyper is rounded up for the next whole percentage value. I verified this is indeed the case by doing the math.

Considering your occupation, background, knowledge, and natural curiosity, it really makes me wonder how thoroughly the "typical" diver goes through his/her owner's manual.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Andy, I don't care what car you own, the point is you need to learn how to drive.

As far as what their needs are, I'm sure it's certainly NOT to learn as little as possible as quick as possible and as cheap as possible,.....that's just what they're getting because they don't know any different....until now at least. And then we get these 50 dive wonders telling us all they know about how wrong everyone else is. It's laughable considering how wrong they are.

Personally I think they should be pissed, not at us, but at the clowns who perpetrate this garbage. I know I was miffed when I figured out it never had to be that way with all the time and money I wasted.....uhgggg.

C-Ya

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Soggy,

I was going to mention this a couple of days ago when you said something about the Vyper not knowing how to calculate MOD. On page 32 of the Vyper manual is the following warning:

"THE DIVE COMPUTER WILL NOT ACCEPT FRACTIONAL PERCENTAGE
VALUES OF OXYGEN CONCENTRATION. DO NOT ROUND UP
FRACTIONAL PERCENTAGES! For example, 31.8% oxygen should be
entered as 31%. Rounding up will cause nitrogen percentages to be understated
and will affect decompression calculations, which could result in
dive planning with an increased risk of decompression sickness. If there is
a desire to adjust the computer to provide more conservative calculations,
use the personal adjustment feature to affect decompression calculations
or reduce the PO2 setting to affect oxygen exposure tracking.".........

The biggest problem being here is that you actually think this is a real problem, which again is the type of reliance on nonsense vs. a reasonably solid understanding of what is truly going on.

I won't speak for Soggy, but I'd bet he, myself, and a whole lot of people would run the same schedule from EAN30 to 32 without worrying much about it. Unfortunately you feel that this line in the sand (from 31 to 32) has more of a value than it really does. We tend to not flirt with any PPO2 limits and can makes reasonable assumptions as they develop. There is no real decompression significance from 31 to 32% and that's how we treat it with much success.

This drive for decimal place accuracy may be nice on paper, but it needs to put into the real world.