Nitrox 28 Uncertified

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1.6???
I am back in work tomorrow...will have a play with the tables and see what sort of % I can come up with from realistic dive profiles.

Remember though....you only get 10 minutes using square profile...on a table... when using dive computers....you will multi-level and can be in the water easily for 45-60 minutes. When calculating multi-level CNS%, it is possible to rack up more than 10% CNS for a dive.....

Yes, and that is what is giving me a headache. Doing multilevel calculations with the PADI tables can get you more the 10% with an EAN28 dive but I suspect that may be entirely caused by rounding up. PPO2 of 1.4 for over 8 minutes but less than 15 rounds up from 5% to 10% and still leave you RNT to burn on the way up. I'm going to run some other square profiles just to see if any go over 10% accumulation on a single dive.

I will probably need asprin. Actually, it is about time to go swim laps so I'll have to work on it later.

OK, I ran a 60 ft square profile and it will run you to 15% and just guesstimating, I suspect a 40 ft dive might run you to 20% on EAN28 (PADI tables). Ouch!! I may have to try a motrin.
 
It is neither more or less safe.... it just poses different risks.

1. It reduces your nitrogen uptake.
2. If planned as air dives, provides a large amount of conservatism.
3. It has a max operating depth, that it is extremely unsafe to exceed.
4. Ox-Tox can occur within the MOD.
5. There is a cumulative %CNS loading that increases chance of Ox-Tox.
6. Most people forget the %CNS loading calculation, because it only figures on repetitive diving where you have higher PP02.
7. There are dangers with filling, storing and handling the tanks,
8. There is fire danger.
9. Some equipment (such as my Scubapro S600 Titanium regs) cannot be used with Nitrox because of fire/degredation risk.

Andy, you've given some reasonably good information in this thread ... but some of the above are, at best, misleading.

1. Is only true if you are talking about comparable dive profiles. And even then the partial pressure difference between 21% and 28% isn't significant enough to be a real concern for most no-decompression dives.

2. I think it would be more accurate to say it provides a "larger" amount of conservatism ... but on most recreational dives, that consideration isn't significant enough to make any real difference. But there is already so much "safety padding" in the algorithms used by dive tables and computers that it really wouldn't make any practical difference.

3. Since the max operating depth is at the limit of recreational diving, exceeding it on air is also unsafe, albeit for different reasons. But to be honest, if you're exceeding MOD on EAN28 as a recreational diver, you've got bigger issues than the gas that you're breathing ... especially for the typical recreational diver on an AL80.

4. Yes, ox-tox can occur within MOD ... but with hundreds of thousands of dives done on nitrox each year, you can count on one hand the incidences of it happening.

5. %CNS limits on EAN28 shouldn't be an issue, since you'll reach NDL long before that happens. And if a diver is exceeding NDL, a little extra oxygen in the gas they're breathing is hardly their biggest concern.

6. See #5. If you stay within NDL and recreational limits, it's extremely unlikely you will come anywhere close to your %CNS, either for a single dive or for the 24-hour limits.

7. That depends entirely on the method used to create the mix. Only in a partial-pressure blending method, where one is handling 100% O2, will this be a concern.

8. See #7. EAN28 is barely more combustible than air, and certainly not sufficient to be a concern under anything less than extreme conditions.

9. I don't use titanium regs (and consider them a total waste of money), but I do not believe that breathing EAN28 through a titanium reg causes any significant reaction to the metal. You need richer mixtures (above the 40% mandated as "safe" for recreational use) for it to be a concern.

I do not advocate people diving a mix they aren't trained to use ... ESPECIALLY since by implication they won't be analyzing it (which any nitrox diver should always do). But I don't think, under the correct conditions, allowing people to use a "slightrox" mix is going to create a bunch of dead divers either.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Andy, you've given some reasonably good information in this thread ... but some of the above are, at best, misleading.

Hi Bob... I wasn't trying to be misleading...the post was made to highlight that there were risks with using Nitrox (however slight they might be)....and that the organization being discussed (subex) was not informing their customers of those risks.

I refer to the following quote (taken from the Subex website)...to clarify the points I made earlier...

"Better than NITROX, better than a normal air mix", SUBEX air28 the air mixture with a future."


4. Yes, ox-tox can occur within MOD ... but with hundreds of thousands of dives done on nitrox each year, you can count on one hand the incidences of it happening.

Yes, agreed....a tiny risk... but customers should be informed of that risk.

6. See #5. If you stay within NDL and recreational limits, it's extremely unlikely you will come anywhere close to your %CNS, either for a single dive or for the 24-hour limits.

Exceedingly unlikely.... or impossible?

Again...my point was only that Subex's marketing was misleading to their customers about the safety of Subex Air28.

8. See #7. EAN28 is barely more combustible than air, and certainly not sufficient to be a concern under anything less than extreme conditions.

But customers should have a right to be informed about those possibilities?

9. I don't use titanium regs (and consider them a total waste of money), but I do not believe that breathing EAN28 through a titanium reg causes any significant reaction to the metal. You need richer mixtures (above the 40% mandated as "safe" for recreational use) for it to be a concern.

I got some Scubapro M25/S600 Titanium....and Scubapro specifically state they cannot be used with nitrox. I even emailed them to check..and got a definite 'no' in reply.

(I am not a big fan of titanium regs either... I just needed to grab a spare Mk25/S600 off Ebay...and they were the first ones to come up...)

I do not advocate people diving a mix they aren't trained to use ... ESPECIALLY since by implication they won't be analyzing it (which any nitrox diver should always do). But I don't think, under the correct conditions, allowing people to use a "slightrox" mix is going to create a bunch of dead divers either.


Me neither. I like EANx28 as a mix.... it suits some of my nearby dive sites perfectly. I can see the logic in using EANx28 as a substitute for Air...as it is a safe option when used within recreational depths and air NDLs.

HOWEVER.... I entirely dislike the way that these Subex jokers are marketing it as an entirely safe and risk-free alternative....not providing/insisting on the appropriate training (which is pretty basic in the first place)....and also trying to tout it as some sort of new 'invention' for diving.

By calling it Subex Air28, they are trying to differentiate it from nitrox...and therefore justify not needing training to use it. In doing so, they are shielding their customers from any drawbacks and dangers (no matter how slight) that exist with it.... and I firmly believe that people should be informed of the risks if they are to opt to participate or utilise a product or service.
 
I checked out the link...

It seems like a cheap, tacky marketing ploy, by an unregulated and extremely minor diving 'organization' (i.e. their organization is there own shops...with no external validation or control).

Maybe they should call it "Voodoo 28" or "Magic 28". Oh then their sales would really go up and it would be just as cheesy.

:dork2:
 
I suspect the supplier may have done that

for the umpteenth time, the issue is not whether the supplier has decided this gas is safe.

the issue is whether you as a diver should dive a gas you have no way of determining for yourself whether it's safe or not

again, the issue is if someone hands you a bottle and says let's go diving ... should you? without being able to determine for yourself whether that gas is safe for that dive?

it's ok, the guy says ... the supplier says it's safe
 
According to their website, you don't even need to switch your computer over to NITROX mode.
So besides the benefits that a certified NITROX diver gets from breathing on NITROX, when can the air28 diver see the benefits since their computer will still be calculating normal nitrogen loading.

Sounds like a way to allow the diver to guess what their load really is which is a pretty dumb risk to get bent. I hope they have extra chambers in the area where air28 is offered.
 
for the umpteenth time, the issue is not whether the supplier has decided this gas is safe.

the issue is whether you as a diver should dive a gas you have no way of determining for yourself whether it's safe or not

again, the issue is if someone hands you a bottle and says let's go diving ... should you? without being able to determine for yourself whether that gas is safe for that dive?

it's ok, the guy says ... the supplier says it's safe

For the most part, I have no way of determining whether any gas that a supplier provides me is safe. About the only exception is when I purchase nitrox from a supplier. Every time I dive a tank of "air" I mostly depend on the supplier to have seen that it is safe. So what is the big legal deal:confused:

I, as a certified nitrox diver have always analyzed the nitrox tanks I have been provided. But that is my choice and I know the burden is on me to do so for my safety. The situation for the diver using nitrox without a nitrox certification is probably more like the situation with me using air and risking odorless and tasteless hazardous contaminants. I depend entirely on the supplier.
 
now you're going off on a totally different issue

by all means, dive a mix simply because the dive shop says it's safe without having the ability to check whether that mix is in fact safe for your dive

excellent diving practice
 
now you're going off on a totally different issue

by all means, dive an unknown mix simply because the dive shop says it's safe

excellent diving practice

A practice that probably occurs at least tens of thousands of time every day.
 
tons of people commit suicide each day too.

not sure that's something I want to emulate
 

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