Next step for longer bottom times on deep dives?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

5 lbs is the low end of scrubber size - but figure about $20 for that sorb. Plus you will need 100% O2 fills, and $300 a year for sensors. Unless you are doing a lot of OC trimix, it will take you a long time to get your money back! :D

But congratulations on going to CCR... and I would say that you should dive it on every dive (OK, maybe not a quick last minute shore dive to 10 feet). Racking up hours is really important, and even experienced CCR divers should keep their skills up. I really prefer not going back and forth - better for muscle memory to stick with the CCR. Plus, it's a lot more fun to dive... who want's to go back to all of that noise?

Back in December I dove ccr almost every day for a month. By the end of the month I was feeling pretty tired one morning, so I decided to skip building the ccr and went on a shallow cave dive on oc, and I was surprised at how much my oc skills had deteriorated. It took me several hours to start getting back into the oc groove, not to mention I gave my friends some pretty good laughs watching me flail around in the process. During the month of February i dove oc almost exclusively, and only took the ccr on longer (4+ hour) dives. It was really nice to not add an hour and a half or so of setup/breakdown time to each day of diving, especially when diving multiple times a week. Ultimately I've come to the conclusion that it's valuable to be able to choose the right tool for the dive, which means keeping skills sharp on both oc and ccr. However, I will say that I dove ccr exclusively for the first hundred hours or so, and would recommend the same to a new ccr diver.
 
Ya'll do realize we are in an echo chamber?

Probably less than .1% of the actual technical certified divers in the world will ever even make it to this forum much less to see your arguments for or against either gas choice.
Of the divers making these dives most will never consider HE and many won't even know it's a possibility.
The reality is that for a recreational hobby, the vast majority are not interested in spending the time and money to get the certification, not interested in spending the money on the gear and gasses, not interested in the extra gear and complexity and will dive air or nitrox whether a few internet Karens like it or not.

There is a post in Basic detailing the decline in participation in scuba in part due to younger generations having a different view on risk and investment of time, money and energy vs. reward. Figure how that will affect the future of diving. We will likely be dinosaurs in another generation because we actually go outdoors.

I disregard name droppers most of the time, but I'm home recovering from Covid-19 and pneumonia and have some free time.

For the OP, I know a lot of divers in your neighborhood and a few look for divers occasionally and they hit all those wrecks on private boats. If you're interested, I'll see if I can get ya'll hooked up. There are also some groups on FB that get some activity.
 

Accepting scientific results is exactly the opposite of being in an echo chamber.

That said, your arguments about price and rewards are more than reasonable and are the only reasons why I do not expect any diver to use helium, even if that is the optimal gas according to the pieces of evidence we have today.
 
Accepting scientific results is exactly the opposite of being in an echo chamber.

That said, your arguments about price and rewards are more than reasonable and are the only reasons why I do not expect any diver to use helium, even if that is the optimal gas according to the pieces of evidence we have today.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the fact that diving helium actually feels better. You see more of your surroundings, you have better awareness, and you remember more of the dive afterwards.
 
No, I don't think they are necessarily ignorant. If they say they understand that they understand the increased risks with narcosis in an emergency situation when exceeding a density of 6.2 g/L and accept those risks, I'm good with that. I'm not good with people who dismiss the science. I have had a conversation with one individual who dismissed Dr. Mitchell as "just an occasional diver" who trusts the divers at his former dive center who "regularly" dive to 70 meters or more on air. A friend of mine in Europe is friends with a number of people who died diving that way. And they don't switch to trimix until 100 meters. Now obviously there is a big gap between 40 and 100 meters on air. However, the risks increase dramatically above a gas density of 6.2 g/L. That's ultimately my point. It does come down to risk assessment, and we all assume different levels of risk. But I'll never understand or respect those who dismiss science.

The problem I have with the gas density argument for 100' swapping is that "the data says the risk starts increasing significantly" around there, but there is no stated level of risk associated with it defined as far as I can see AND the data supporting that comes assuming that not only are you breathing that gas at the stated depths, but also doing fairly extreme exertion at the same time (all the test data that came up with the 8.5 kPa number, Warkander et al, for a high risk of incapacitation that I can find were using divers doing significant exercise for extended periods of time, a situation I've never been in while diving personally). Let's assume that you're at 130' on air, your buddy is at 130' on 21/35, and you both have a burst LP hose. What is the basic risk of a bad outcome using air assuming you're trained (10-45 seconds of activity to deal with the issue and then to start your ascent)? 0.000001%? 0.00001%? I mean if it's 100 more risky on air than trimix, but the $100 in trimix is going to change your risk of a bad outcome from 1 in 1,000,000 to 1 in 100,000 is it worth an extra $400 in gas every weekend for to do 4 dives, especially if you know that your dive isn't likely to be in a condition where you're doing the exercise levels that the testing was generally done in?

It would be safer for me to drive an armored vehicle, as the chance that a road rage incident etc. would be survivable would be significantly higher, but it's not cost effective to me based on the low probability of a negative outcome in the first place (despite it being significantly safer if that low probability event happens).

Now, if the science said "if you have a problem at 110' on air, there's a 5% chance you'll end up dying but if you were on 21/35 instead you'd have a 0.005% chance of dying" it would be a no-brainer to say it's worth it. That, as far as I can tell, has never been the message from anyone. Simply "it'll reduce the risk of X significantly", where X is a measurable item that doesn't necessarily equate to a specific negative overall outcome (i.e. death etc.) happening, but no statements or conclusions about what that risk of an actual bad outcome is mentioned in any of the things I've read or watched. If such an assessment exists I'd love to see it, but what I've seen is we have two general camps: those who say "the risk is really low on air so they're happy on air to a point", and those who say "the risk is lower on trimix so I'm going to use trimix regardless of how potentially safe it is without trimix". Often the first group omits the "to a point" and the second group omits the "regardless of how potentially safe it is without trimix" as each have decided that their person choice of "safe" is what defines "safe".

Usually, both camps ignore any other factors that impact risk. Personally, I'll dive air to 150-160' at my local quarry, with few if any entanglement hazards, no current to speak of, no overhead environments to be concerned with, navigation can always consist of "go up", etc. as the added expense of going to trimix for such a relatively safe dive doesn't seem worth it (especially with the vaguely defined benefit it would offer based on gas density and the conditional benefit from reduced narcosis). Now, if I were to be penetrating the Oriskany hanger at 176' in open water with currents and an overhead environment and all the other risk factors, the benefits of reduced narcosis start to make the dive seem significantly safer and the reduced gas density, when I could potentially encounter strong currents where strong exercise might be necessary provides another compelling reason to think that the benefits would be worth it.

So, for me, it comes down to relative risk. With actual risk being relative from person to person and dive to dive, and the science not giving a definitive answer as to what is "safe" to dive and what is "unsafe" to dive, I evaluate based on the dives I'm doing, the information I have, and the risks I'm willing to take. Which is what I suggest everyone do, which means we're likely to all come up with different answers as to what we consider "safe".
 
OP would still need to get minimum Adv Nitrox cert to have access to 80%. As far as I can tell, no way around getting an advanced cert or two.
Should have been clearer...

For dives to 30m/100' diving on 32% will get you 30mins on the bottom before you're into deco.

Taking a stage of 80% (my preferred rich gas, other gasses such as 100% are available) means that you can easily do an hour on the bottom with circa 30mins of deco. This will require you to have Advanced Nitrox and Decompression Procedures (all agencies do this, gives you circa 45m).

If you really want to push your bottom time at 30m/100', then you need a backup deco gas. Typically you''d take two stage bottles, but extend your bottom time for, say 90mins with about an hour of deco. This will require you to have the next level of skills, for two stages, typically called Extended Range or Normoxic Trimix.

Of course you can dive deeper too; 40m/130' for an hour with about 45mins deco. That's best done with backup deco gas as your backgas definitely won't last if your deco stage fails. Twinsets and deco stages give you easy access to far longer bottom times.

Beyond 40m/130' helium becomes your friend to reduce the narcosis. On open circuit it's very expensive.

FWIW, my ANDP & Normoxic skills were mostly used down to 40ish metres 130' ish. Mainly as one or two stages would always be used for 2 to 2.5 hour runtimes.

And a pee valve.
 
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the fact that diving helium actually feels better. You see more of your surroundings, you have better awareness, and you remember more of the dive afterwards.

Isn't that a consequence of the lower narcosis? I believe everyone is considering it :)
 
Like it or not, the more "scientific" approach is not to follow one person's recommendations. Instead, follow the entire scientific community. A single individual, even if very knowledgeable, can make mistakes. The entire community too, but it's more unlikely. :)

I can’t speak for Dr. Mitchell as I don’t know the man personally but I have a number of friends who are scientists in different fields. Prior to publishing their work or results of studies, they consult other scientists to examine the data And conduct a mini peer review prior to publishing. Now as I said I don’t know if Dr. Mitchell does the same. But I’d be willing to bet money that he doesn’t operate in a vacuum.

When you say community do you mean us divers? Because if you do I would take the knowledge and recommendation of a single individual that studies decompression science over thousands of non-scientists.

Now people can accuse me of name dropping, but it isn’t that. It is citing a credible source. An expert source that overrides one’s hubris of knowing better than anyone else based upon whatever.
 
I love my CCR, has really revitalized my interest in diving. I use it for pretty much every dive other than very shallow shore dives where I don't feel like setting it all up for macro work in 5 feet of water.

But you have to be doing a good bit of OC trimix before buying a rebreather saves you money. Just considering consumables alone (sorb, cells and maintenance), it's really not cheaper for the vast majority of divers.

Yes, there are big deco advantages, but for the kind of diving the OP is doing, that would be primarily in shallower dives where a fixed PPO2 of 1.3 will give you a lot longer NDL than any reasonable OC mix. For example, if you are doing a dive to 60 feet (2.8 ATA), you would have to be diving EAN 46 to get the same NDL as a CCR. With the OP diving a relatively square profile to 100 feet (4 ATA) on EAN 32, they would have similar NDLs on OC.

For what the OP posted, I don't see why anyone would be suggesting a CCR. I think that they are great, and while they add risks they also remove other risks, and that's a whole different argument. But given the limits of what they are asking, OC tech training seems to be a better use of time, money and resources for this particular situation.

CCR is brilliant for those 30m/100' to 45m/140' dives -- and all others for that matter. The reasons, for me at least, is that:
  • I can use helium for every dive as the costs are minimal; £5/€6/$7 per dive. Literally nothing.
  • For the deeper dives I can use a rich helium mix without breaking the bank £10/€12/$14
  • I bank my own gas; just need some twinsets to stash air, oxygen and helium mix. Can get a dozen or more dives out of those fills.
  • Planning's trivial. Down to 30m/100' use a single bailout of 32%. Down to 40m/130' use two bailouts (add a 80%). Beyond that use a standard mix (21/35) plus deco stage.
  • Building the unit takes a little time, but it's the same every dive; just choose your diluent
On top of that comes all the other advantages of CCR; quiet, no gas anxiety, warm gas...

I'd even use CCR for a shore dive (not much chance of that around here).


The big tip for CCR diving: do your ANDP (advanced nitrox & deco procedures) on OC first and sort out your core skills (buoyancy, finning and trim). Doing your MOD1 (first CCR qualification) is trivially simple thereafter.
 

Back
Top Bottom