New to ScubaBoard and would like to get your opinion

[Diver Dennis]

Excellent post Matthew.

 

[shugar]

bravo tata matt! bravo!

that's definitely a quality post...

Jag

 

[chip104]

bravo tata matt! bravo!

that's definitely a quality post...

Jag

since when has Matthew ever made as useless of a post as the rest of us?

 

[eagerbeaver]

... i am not aware of any uncertified dive guides. what i am aware though are that there are so many boatmen who are more experienced than the part-time or newly DMs (expats) but who cannot and were not allowed to dive a guide because they do not have the proper certification for it.

This is a dicey area. There definitely are plenty of non-certified DM's working in the Philippines, as probably in many other countries. If you want to open a can of worms then let's discuss about whether a local DM who had a low quality DM course(or none at all) but has 8,000 dives guiding guests is better than an expat who graduated from the finest dive college in the world(wherever that may be) but has only 300 dives and 2 courses under their belt....

It is impossible to say.

Does the experienced guy(or girl) get lazy and share air on an octopus when he probably shouldn't? More than likely.

Does the inexperienced guy take someone who is not quite ready to deal with a more advanced dive site? Quite possible.

As Matthew said(great name by the way!) it comes down to following your dive training and your plan, and not screwing with fate. Unfortunately we all get lazy, and add that with the money hungry society we do things that in hindsight we shouldn't have...I'm certainly guilty of that.

My thoughts go to the families etc.

Matt.

 

[rhadamantus]

matt, you do know that if you look at it as a black or white discussion, it is gonna get ugly, don't you? i am not generalizing that the entire new non local instructors/DMs are inferior to the old timer locals who have manned the seas since god-knows-when... come on, that is quite obvious in my post.

i was talking about PG. but then, you probably would have a sturdier experience observation than i do- having spent ages in PG than i did. i have heard about this first hand and have experienced it a number of times...i still stick to what i said. i am not aware that there are lots of non-certified locals diving a guide but i do am aware that there are boatmen who can dive a dive better than part time expats DMs (new ones) who were certified.

but does that mean i am saying that a diver is safer with someone uncertified but has 3000 dives under his belt compared to diving a DM who has had all those certifications but hadn't earned even 10% of that number? you would be crazy if you think i did because i wasn't even thinking that line of thought.

but for the record? if i was the diver....? i'd take the DM who knew the dive site like the back of his hand anytime, with certification or not. for the simple reason that he knows the dive site well, can show me the right stuff, knows where to enter and exit....blah blah blah.... i still think when it comes to my safety, i am going to rely only and only to myself.

 

[eagerbeaver]

matt, you do know that if you look at it as a black or white discussion, it is gonna get ugly, don't you? i am not generalizing that the entire new non local instructors/DMs are inferior to the old timer locals who have manned the seas since god-knows-when... come on, that is quite obvious in my post.

i was talking about PG. but then, you probably would have a sturdier experience observation than i do- having spent ages in PG than i did. i have heard about this first hand and have experienced it a number of times...i still stick to what i said. i am not aware that there are lots of non-certified locals diving a guide but i do am aware that there are boatmen who can dive a dive better than part time expats DMs (new ones) who were certified.

but does that mean i am saying that a diver is safer with someone uncertified but has 3000 dives under his belt compared to diving a DM who has had all those certifications but hadn't earned even 10% of that number? you would be crazy if you think i did because i wasn't even thinking that line of thought.

but for the record? if i was the diver....? i'd take the DM who knew the dive site like the back of his hand anytime, with certification or not. for the simple reason that he knows the dive site well, can show me the right stuff, knows where to enter and exit....blah blah blah.... i still think when it comes to my safety, i am going to rely only and only to myself.

I didn't mean to be generalising either, I was just trying to highlight the complexity of whether someone is certified or not. PG is probably one of the better places for having guides certified, but they are certainly still there...i wont name names!

I totally agree that it is smart to be able to look after yourself...but then that is part of the role of a divemaster, to look after the divers he guides, not just to show off the fancy critters.

 

[jigo]

I totally agree that it is smart to be able to look after yourself...but then that is part of the role of a divemaster, to look after the divers he guides, not just to show off the fancy critters.

agree with you Matt. some DMs forget that safety is their responsibility even if individual divers already have the training. otherwise, why would people need a DM?

 

[Underwatercrawler]

Interesting discussion. Again, I apologise for the not being able to provide a more indepth information of what happened and a lot of people, I've noticed, have either chosen not to talk about it or genuinely don't know about the details of the accident in Mainit.

It is good, however, that I find what you're opinions are regarding this matter. I do get good insights.

It's all good!

 

[seaducer]

Greetings to all. I'm new here in ScubaBoard and I would like to get your take on two dive accidents that happened here in the Philippines.

One 15 yo boy who was given an introdive got in the water together with other newbies. The lead found him unconcious underwater without his regulator in his mouth. They tried to revive the boy but all efforts were futile. Now they're having a debate on the proceedure of the lead diver (not stated if it was an Instructor or a Dive Master DSD Leader).

Another incident happened just last Sunday when a 27 year old man died and got lost during a drift dive. The diver went low on air and shared air with the Dive Master. After a few minutes, the Dive Master found that the Diver sharing his air was gone.

As others have said, without more details and even local conditions, it is hard to have a discussion on these specific incidents. That being said, here is my take based on the information you have given us:

RE the 15 YO boy, hard to say. Could be a freak accident, perhaps undiagnosed siezures, or even a stroke. I had a healthy cousin who had a stroke at 15, with no prior conditions or symptoms, and was just watching TV, nothing strenuous. It smells like a mistake by the dive leader, not paying enough attention. But the reality is that it could have been unavoidable at any depth. I don't feel comfortable going any further with this one.

RE the 27 YO. Am I reading you correctly? I get that the victim ran LOA, was successfully doing an air share with the DM, who after a few minutes noticed he was missing?

Assuming this is the case (as in I am not discussing the specific incident, but just the idea that what I wrote above is true) there is some seriously bad decision making on the part of the DM. To be fair I have seen other DM's perform an air share in order to extend the BT of an inexperienced diver. These were not DM's from developing nations, but US born bred and trained DM's. Stupidity knows no borders.

This IMO is not safe, and should never be done. I mean would you plan the entire dive with two people breathing off the same SCUBA unit??? No? Then why extend the dive doing such?

If you come to me requesting an air share, our, as in yours and mine both, dive is over and we make an ascent. The only time I would not make a direct ascent is if we are tied off to a wreck, there is a current, I can SEE the upline, and I have plenty of gas. (assuming OW here, no overhead)

Mistake number 2 is the donating diver not being in direct contact with the person who is using his airsource. I would demand to be in control at this point. Whether you screwed up or were a victim of equipment malfunction, I want to be in control of MY perfectly working air supply. To be fair the OOA diver should have made sure he was in physical contact with the other diver, if you get seperated, you are now seperated from you air source.

The only time I would not be in direct contact with you if I were donating is if I were diving with a slung redundant source. At this point I would give you that reg, clip the unit onto you and shove off. I would still abort my dive and ascend with you, but not in direct contact.

Now, circumstances happen, and sometimes conditions can break physical contact. But that is not how I read your post. If the situation were different, a current dragged them apart and the diver drowned, well, what can you say about that? It would then go to dive planning and whether the DM was experienced enough to lead at that site, and whether the diver experienced enough to attempt it.

 

[bill22]

agree with you Matt. some DMs forget that safety is their responsibility even if individual divers already have the training. otherwise, why would people need a DM?

The main reason I want a DM is "local knowledge". Should a DM be safety conscious... absolutely. They know the local conditions much better than I. I give them my certification level and experience, then trust that they will use that local knowledge to keep us out of trouble. That's what I'm paying for.

I have to agree with Maggie and Matthew. Ultimately as a certified diver I believe that I'm responsible for myself. We shouldn't be allowing anyone to get us into a situation that is outside our comfort level.